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The Underwire Podcast
Welcome to The Underwire Podcast: Supporting you when life needs a lift.
Hosted by Jess G., this podcast offers a unique blend of mental health insights, personal growth stories, and expert advice. Join us (and special guests!) as we explore the realms of mental health, fitness, and personal growth, providing support and encouragement to self-improvement seekers and enthusiasts of music, fitness & nutrition, and nerdery. Each episode is crafted to inspire and uplift, tackling life's challenges head-on.
Tune in for honest conversations, practical tips, and deep dives into topics that matter.
Perfect for anyone looking to hear stories of struggle turned to triumph - tune in as we conquer life's hurdles with a touch of humor and a lot of heart, offering a supportive nudge when you need it most.
*****DISCLAIMER: The Underwire Podcast provides content for informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Jess G. and Ryan Rainbro are not medical professionals, and the opinions expressed on the podcast are based on their personal experiences, research, and general knowledge. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. ******
The Underwire Podcast
The Fight Within: Muay Thai and Mental Toughness with Jenine Pilla
On this episode, we’re diving into the world of Muay Thai—but not just the sport itself. We’re talking about how this martial art builds resilience, strengthens your mindset, and can help you navigate life’s toughest moments.
Joining us is my longtime friend, Jenine Pilla. Jenine has been training in Muay Thai since 2015, earning local, national, and international titles along the way. She now coaches at 8 Limbs Academy in Philly and does incredible work in harm reduction, violence prevention, and community outreach for the Philadelphia DA’s office.
Follow Jenine on Instagram:
@jeninepilla
Follow 8 Limbs Academy:
@8limbsacademy
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:
- How Jenine got into Muay Thai and what kept her going
- The mental and emotional side of training and competing
- How Muay Thai helped her process grief and build resilience
- Balancing training, work, and personal life
- The role of community in personal growth
- And, of course, a little love for Taylor Swift and bike rides
SHOUTOUTS TO:
- Charlie and Kate from 8 Limbs Academy for building an amazing training space and community
- 8 Limbs Academy for fostering growth and resilience in their students
- Philly Devo Bike Program for their work in getting more people on bikes and strengthening the community
If you’ve ever been curious about Muay Thai or just need some motivation to push yourself outside your comfort zone, this one’s for you.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Underwire, supporting you when life needs a. I'm your host Jess, and I'm so excited for today's episode because we are talking about the art of eight limbs Muay Thai, but not just the sport itself. We're diving into how this martial art builds resilience, strengthens your mindset, and can even help you navigate life's toughest moments. Joining with me today is special guest and longtime friend, Janine Pilla, to break it down for us and dive deep into her 10-year Muay Thai journey. Janine has been training in Muay Thai since 2015 and has racked up national and international. titles along the way. She now coaches at Eight Limbs Academy in Philly, and when she's not in the she's out in the community doing incredibly important work in harm reduction, violence prevention, and outreach for the Philadelphia DA's office. We'll be touching on things like how she got into Muay Thai, the highs and lows of competing, and how her training has shaped her mindset and even helped her process grief. We'll also get into how she balances everything, the mental and emotional side of the sport, and of some fun stuff like her love for Taylor Swift and bike rides. If you've ever been curious about martial arts, need a push. to try something new or just want to hear an inspiring story about resilience, and this one is for you. So let's get right into it. Thank you again so much for doing this today. I'm, yeah, I'm excited too! It just is just so cool to see people that you have known for so long evolve and talk about all of the things that they've done to get to where they are. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation here. So let's dive right in then. So we're talking Muay Thai today. I want to know, first and foremost, what drew you into Muay Thai initially? So it's funny 'cause I get this question all the time and I like think about it often. And growing up. I was always like an athlete. Like I always played sports. I have two older brothers. We were very like jock adjacent, like that weird intersection of like punk slash jock kid, which is like a really funny thing that I've explored over time. So like growing up, I played soccer, I played softball, I was just like constantly active, always riding bikes. And then I feel like when I went to school, I still had some like avenues and outlets. Like when I went to college, you kind of age out of this ability to like play sports, especially competitively. And I was like running at the time, but I was never really had an activity, and I was playing like in pickup like softball teams and soccer teams, but I never had an activity. I rode bikes, but nothing that I could do regularly that I found fun. And I always had friends on the periphery that did it. So I always had friends on the periphery that did it. And then I was working in restaurants for a while, and I was working at Continental Midtown, and there was a chef there that was like, yo, I do this thing called Muay Thai, and I think you'd be really into it. So he invited me to his gym, and like me and a few friends just like went for like a workout, and I did like a short workout, and I was fucking obsessed. And then from there that gave me the confidence to kind of then go into a Muay Thai gym. And I was like brutally obsessed from the jump off. Where did you start out? So I started out at Body Arts. So Body Arts gym under Angel Cartagena, and Steve Haag, and Jeremy Haynes. And that was on Second and Poplar. So it was the first gym I moseyed into when I was little. I was 25 when I started, which is funny. Wow! And now it's almost 10 years later. Yeah, that is that's so sick! It makes me so happy to hear my friends sticking with the thing that they just were like, I'm going to try this. And 10 years later, you're still crushing it! And I love to hear about it. So that's amazing. So can you tell me when you first started what were some of your earliest memories of training and how did that feel both physically and also mentally? Cause those are two very different things. It's funny because like thinking back on it now, I think my ability to pick up on these things, like I'm a more attuned to now and probably didn't even notice it at the time. But like physically, I was a soccer player, so this like kind of like kicking motion came. I couldn't box for shit. I think I've only gotten good at boxing like maybe a year ago. I just remember being sore and being kind of like frustrated, but I think it was like that level of frustration that kind of really made the pursuit of getting better. That was just something I was really in on. And it's kind of something that is my personality. I'm very goal-oriented. And what I found through Muay Thai over time is just like this commitment to just getting better. And when you first start out, those improvements are leaps and bounds, and they're really recognizable. So that was like definitely something that was super big in the beginning. And then mentally, I was just obsessed, right? I was like obsessed with this thing. I was obsessed with this idea of getting better. I was training twice a day, like from the jump off. At the time, I was doing some freelance journalism work, and I interviewed for a position with the Associated Press that would have been like a jumping point for my journalism career. And it was overnights, and I had no lie; I had literally just started training Muay Thai, and I was like, this would be rad for journalism, but I would never be able to train. And then, I ended up like turning down the Wow. That's awesome! So you were saying that you really liked the tangible results, and you liked seeing that when you first started. Would you say that that would probably be the main reason that kept you motivated to keep going? There were so many things that definitely being one of them being like I want to get a better rear kick. I need a better switch kick. I need better at this. I need better this. And just like, and it's not only that like especially in a martial arts gym and like even in any space where it just involves showing up regularly, the more you show up, the more comfortable you get in the space and the more regularly you're like integrated into the community. And then you're just kind of given access and respect. So just the sheer act of showing up and trying continuously gives you access to like more knowledge, more people taking you seriously, and greater. access to the space and the sport. Do you think that the activities and the sports that you played when you were younger helped to develop your resilience I guess and discipline that's needed for any type of martial art? Because the common listener that might just be listening to this episode may or may not realize that when you commit to a martial art, it's not just something that you show up to every now and then. That's not like an L A Fitness. That's not like a Planet Fitness where you join a and you have this membership, and you show up whenever you want. It's, it's really a So do you think that playing sports helped develop your resilience and determination. Yeah, so it's like kind of like chicken and egg in a way. Like, I can't tell if it was my personality or if it was my personality sculpted by my life experience of playing sports. Growing up, though, I started playing soccer at four, and I stopped playing soccer when I didn't have access to it anymore at like 19. And I think there was same with softball. It was just like you became accustomed to twice a You show up to practice and then you're expected to show up for the games. And like that expectation of showing up, I think over time, by playing sports and just being integrated in like that sport community. then that gave me the experience of like practice is something that is needed. And then showing up is something that is needed. And it's expected of you in a way like it's expected of you on a personal level and from like your teammates and those people around you, your coaches especially when you start to get to a higher level. I think over time I don't know if it's like the resiliency from those early sport years or if it was just like kind of the knowledge of sport culture and like what that is. And I think like coming to like an athletic space as an adult where like other people don't have that background in sports like you can. tell like that is a huge difference. I completely agree. You're absolutely right. That sport mindset, you can tell as in what kid has played sports versus what kid hasn't. Also, you can tell who's an only child versus who had siblings Most of the time. But sports, that's a great point. I think that that is. And I was the youngest, and I had two older brothers. So it was like, and they played sports. And like for me to integrate with my brothers, you had to be fucking good at sports. Like, yo, we're going to go have a catch, and you better fucking catch this ball. That's right. Are you going to get beat up or else? So when you first started keeping up with your training wasn't an But what challenges did you face when you first started? So my first gym, my first gym was like OG Muay Thai, Angel Cartagena. Like you know, Philly Muay Thai, you know, Body Arts. There's like a stem of like Philly Muay Thai has a family tree. And it's funny because my current coaches at Eight Limbs, Charlie Catone and Kate Allen Catone, Charlie was coaching at Body Arts and decided to leave Body Arts and open Eight Limbs at the exact same month that I started training at Body Arts. So we were like two ships passing in the night. But when I first started training, some of the things that I kind of butted. Up against was like there weren't many people my size, and like a lot of the people that were training there were like more advanced. And I got the shit kicked out of me. And like, I don't know, I'm a psycho. I don't want to use that word, but like I'm crazy in the way that like I loved it. Like, it was like competition to me is like, it's like has become like a very comfortable space. But also I wanted to compete more. Like immediately I had my first fight six months after training, and then I had four fights back to back to back to back. And those fights varied in fucking amazing experiences to like real shit time. And a lot of that was just like rushing. And my coach at the time had already dumped like 30 years into the sport. And by the time I was coming through and was eager to compete, everyone there was like, 'Yo, we're not trying to compete anymore. We're just trying to like come and do Muay Thai with my friends on a Saturday afternoon So like not having that reciprocated was hard. So like making the choice early on to switch gyms to my current gym, which is Eight Limbs, to really focus on like the option to have training partners more my size and be surrounded by people that are like more my speed and their wants and goals in the sport, and then also kind of more access to, I think. that's a really great decision that you had to make to align yourself better with the environment that you were looking for. And that's really great that you were able to realize that, that you wanted that, that you wanted the more competitive aspect of it. Because for somebody like me, I only trained Muay Thai because I just loved to do it. But I had no aspects at all whatsoever to step into a ring and fight for real. Like to me, you know, the cutting weight and all of that, I was just, I don't want anything to do with it. And that's fine because I know that about myself. Yeah, it's funny thinking back on it now because like the way I went around. about switching gyms like I would advise to do it not the way that I did it when I was like a total noob to the sport and the community. And like you really don't know. And like it's funny, like over time, like I always come back to this concept of like I've been in the sport for so long and I have so much experience and knowledge that it's not just experience in the ring. It's just like experience navigating these weird, like these very nuanced communities and cultures. So like the way I left wasn't great, and I should have done better. But at the same time, I didn't know any better. And I was like a totally different person then. is wrong or not the best way. And hopefully, we learn from that and make a different choice in the future. So, you spoke a little bit about competing, which I'm really interested in. What are some key milestones in your Muay Thai journey that stand out to you, like competitions or any sort of breakthroughs that you had? I'm really interested in hearing. Yeah, and this is like kind of why I was excited to do this podcast, because I have this really awful— and it's something I've been like working on a lot, especially this past year. I have this really awful habit of seeing my accomplishments in the sport as just a stepping stone to what's next. There's So many things that happened that I never, like, sat with and gave time to and, like, gave myself a pat on the back for. 'Cause, like, I'll always manage to find a way to be like, yeah, my first ever, like, title fight was against somebody at the time who was, like, at the top of the food chain. She was competing internationally; she had a lot of experience, and it was in Atlantic City in New Jersey, which was, like, in this old casino. And it was, like, a very high level, technical fight that I ended up winning. But at the time, I was like, that was cool, I won that, but maybe she didn't show up. Maybe she was, like, there was always something there that. would never be like, yo, I won that shit straight out. And it was awesome. It's always something. Right? Yeah, right. That happens so frequently to everybody. I feel like that is so common. And just because we are women, I feel like it definitely happens to women for sure a lot more frequently. And I think that it is super important to kind of take a second to be able to have these moments where you reflect on your wins, even if they are super small. Reflecting on your wins, no matter how small they are, pat yourself on the back for that. And not be like, not minimize your accomplishments because you worked really hard to do the thing, and you did. the thing. And guess what? Even if you didn't win, you could still be like, well, I tried and I did it. And I'm just proud of myself for doing that. Yeah, and there's so many things. Like, there's this tournament TBA in Iowa. And like my first run at that, I blew out my ankle in the first fight, and I fought with a busted ankle three times and lost in the finals. And like, for years, like my entire Muay Thai journey has been losing in the or having some sort of gnarly mishap or injury that has just gotten in the way of opportunities. And like, that was like my first go at that. And then like, the next year I came back as an A-class fighter and I beat out top. competition and got beat by this girl Coral who is fucking amazing and like continues to be one of the best. But like again lost in the But I think like a big thing each fight has, and each like competition has had its like own things to overcome. Like whether it's in the fight camp, whether it's in injuries. When I first got to eight limbs, I competed 11 times in a, which is fucking unheard of. Yeah, that's wild. So I skyrocketed to A class immediately. So I was like only fighting for like a year, year and a half, and then I was in A. And then I was just like hanging with the big dogs. But that also led to some gnarly injuries. So I was out of competition. for about like a year and a half because like I had really bad hip injuries just from overuse over time and like strength imbalances and just being crazy and going all in for years. So like overcoming that and like coming back to fighting after that was huge and just like kind of relearning.
And this is something I'm always doing:I'm relearning and shuffling my priorities. And then another big thing was like post-COVID somehow maintaining training through COVID. And then post-COVID I went and fought like a kickboxing tournament, a national kickboxing tournament down in Nashville because it was the first thing to be on COVID. what is COVID? But it was the first competition to kind of like be on post-COVID. And it was a totally different scoring. And I fought two girls, this girl Angela Barr and this girl Lily Helton. And they're both amazing. And I fought them both a few times, but they're like top class. And I ended up winning that. And then that brought me to my first international competition. And that kind of like opened a whole new level of training and competing for me. So what I would really like to know through all of that is, with all of those injuries and the times that you've, I'm sure that that made you feel very frustrated amongst many other emotions. So what kept you going through all of that? How did you overcome that? I remember there was like a bit of time where I was like losing, and my fighting style is like really technical. I can out IQ you, and I could out IQ you from the start, but I would never be scoring, and I never had that aggression. So after losing many times and like finding that to be the through line, I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna change the way I train. We always say at the gym, like you fight the way you train. So I just like kind of made these like minuscule, not minuscule, huge changes in my training, like aggression, aggression. And I'm still not the most aggressive fighter. but I'm like more I can like hang a little bit more than I used to be able to. But also just like I think something that's really important whether it's martial arts or anything in life is like it happens, can have your fucking pity party and you can deal with it, but to like let that drag you down and stop you, you can't do that. You have to keep going. And then like over time we always say that like the longer you're in the sport, the weirder you get. And I think it's just because like you just come up with like you have these things over time that just like keep you in the game. And whether it's like this like pursuit of personal growth or like these goals in the sport it's something. It's this concept of resiliency where, like, sometimes some things take longer to bounce back from, both physically and mentally and emotionally. Lean on the people that are around you to support you, to help you deal with it. And then you fucking move on. Yeah, you said so many really great things in all of that about not letting failure deter you from persisting to keep going and that you just need that resilience. And you just need to, exactly like you said, lean on your support. Have a good support system. That's huge in any aspect of life, is having a great support system. And I truly believe that if you have the right people in your inner circle, you can get through legitimately anything. I love that, and I love all of those points that you brought up. Speaking of all of those things, so we talked about, you know, we already know like the physical benefits of exercise and things, or even, you know, maybe not the benefits of getting injured. But I would really want to hear from you how Muay Thai has impacted your emotional well-being as well, or just mental health. This is like such a good question because it’s so many things, and I think, like now that I have a little bit more, I guess, like self-awareness and knowledge, I. am truly able to see the impacts and like the benefits and downfalls, like the person, right? For 10 years, it gives you, right? Yeah, both. I want to hear both sides— the positives and the negatives. Yeah, this concept of like resiliency is huge. There's so much that I have the confidence to confront and overcome, and it's like because I I know I've done hard things, I know I can do hard things. So like knowing that really gives me the confidence to kind of like push forward. Also, I've done it for a while. I've interacted— I've had so many teammates that I had the ability to like be open and vulnerable with, and it's like being open and vulnerable. with teammates and coaches and myself, that is where like a lot of growth has come and having feelings and having emotions that used to get in the way, but that now I can just kind of name it and be like, Oh, this is happening because of this. So like, why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? Because it's like weird to be like, this is getting in the way of me training. This is getting in the way of me fucking being great; like I need to confront it to kind of like move on, which was huge. And then there's like the downfalls of the mental health aspect of competition and sport and pursuing a sport at this, at a high level like this, and it's Like always, something that I find really hard to talk about because I think before I was like embarrassed that I let something like a sport take up so much time and space in my life, that like it's hard for people to like truly understand. So, like a lot of times I just didn't talk about it because I'm like you just don't get it, and if I tell you like how this makes me fucking crazy, you're just gonna tell me to like move on or not get over it and look into that. Do you think that felt alienating for you? So, I think it always led me to I always needed to be something else. And I think that's like really important when you have like a hobby. or or something like it can define you to a point. And it can be so much of your personality. But you need to be multifaceted so that when one thing can't be the main thing, like you have other identities to lean on, and that has ebbed and flowed over time. And like the past few years, there were so many other things in my life that were out of whack, and I was like if I could just be great at Muay Thai, if I could just be great. It's like I'm still accomplishing, and I rode that until the wheels fell off, and they fucking fell off. And I had to step back and be like okay, I'm putting all of my eggs in this basket. Why? It's like oh, because like I'm living. In a place that is unfulfilling, I'm in an unfulfilling relationship; I don't like my job. I'm away from friends in a support group, and like I needed other identities. I needed to like step back from Muay Thai and find who is Janine if Janine can't be a Muay Thai fighter anymore. That's such a great point! So what brought you to that breaking point then to stop and say, whoa, hold on; these wheels have fallen off? Let me rediscover who I am and who I want to be. What was kind of the turning point for that? It was so many things, and like it was so many things that I kind of like overlooked for a really long time, so like it manifested in training. by like I'm generally pretty coachable and I'm always open to learning new things. But for like a while, like a year, year and a half, Charlie couldn't coach me. You couldn't tell me what to do; I would internalize it. I'd be like, this is bullshit. Like I can't learn new things. Like why are we boxing? I shouldn't be boxing. I'm such a bad boxer and it was just like I didn't have this like growth mindset of just being like getting better at something is hard and you're gonna be fucking bad at it. This has been your whole life in the sport. Like be okay with being bad at it and over time it gets better; like that discomfort gets better. But so it manifested. In training like that, and then there were so many other like personal things that were just like happening in parallel that I was just like pushing to the back burner, just being like, it's fine, I'm just gonna go to training, I'm just gonna go to training, I'm just gonna go to training, I'm just gonna fight, I'm just gonna be back and fight camp. It's fine. And then it got to the point where like I wasn't sleeping; it manifested in stress overload. My hormones went haywire. My body was breaking down, like things were just breaking down all around, and then there was just like a big personal moment where I had a friend pass away that I grew up with in like October, and being like confronted with grief again was just like no, fuck this, I'm clearly unhappy with my life right now. And like I can't go back into another fucking fight camp; I need to deal with this shit. Yeah, and again you bring up so many great points about having that be your life because it can be, if you let it, this obsessive thing where it's just your little avoidance of dealing with anything else. And it's an excuse, and it's like oh well, I'm putting all this time and energy into training, and that's really important. That's what matters. Yeah, but then you realize like oh shit, I got to deal with the other. shit toothat next step I couldn't take a breath. I had to be pursuing because if I wasn't pursuing, then that opportunity wasn't going to be there anymore, and then it was never going to, and Muay Thai was going to cease to exist. And like I had that mindset for so long, and it was so detrimental. And it's still something I struggle with. If somebody offers me a fight, I'm gonna say yes, and I'll just make it work. And that's just the scarcity mindset of just being like I have to take it or that possibility, that opportunity, is never going to be around again. And when I first started fighting, maybe that was the reality for my coach Kate. When She came up in the sport; there were few opportunities for women. She paved the way for so much and built spaces for more opportunities for women. But when I was first starting out, it was like you take it or it's gone, and I internalized that entirely. Hey, real quick, I just wanted to take a second to thank you for. If you're enjoying the show and want to help keep it going, you can now support The Underwire on Buy Me A Coffee. It's similar to Patreon. It's like a little tip jar where you can send a one-time $ 5 donation or join as a monthly member for a little extra support. No pressure. Just know that every bit helps and I appreciate you so much. You can check it out at buymeacoffee. com slash theunderwirepod. The link will be in the show notes. Now back to the episode. I'm sure that was easy to do too because, I mean, the sport is so cutthroat. And then the added bonus that you're a woman as well has those additional pressures on top of the societal pressures we're already facing. And it's like, oh my God, I have to keep swimming or else I'm going to drown. And it's exhausting. So, I don't blame you for your wheels falling off and getting to a point to readjust. And I commend you for doing that because it's not easy. And you said it's something that you're still struggling with trying. to find that happy medium of not putting all of your eggs in one basket but sometimes you still just kind of want to. And that's okay. Yeah. And it's hard when you love it. I fucking love it. People are like, why do you still do it? I'm like, yo, it's so fun. I love it. Yeah, because you love it. Why does anybody do anything? Because it's fun. Because you enjoy doing it. Yeah. And that's incredible. So another thing that you touched on is grief, how grief came back up because you've lost a friend. And that was a part of the wheels falling off and you readjusting to life. In addition to your friend passing away, I know that you and I both share something similar. amongst other better things, but we both know what it's like to have a parent pass away. And if you're with the grieving process, with coping with all of that while it was going on, you know, and not just Muay Thai, the sport, but the community that you have supporting you with Muay Thai, with your gym, and all of that. So I just love to hear if you'd like to share. Of course. So like, my dad passed away in 2022, and I think like it's funny because when I look at how I processed a lot of that grief, it sure as fuck didn't come in the Muay Thai gym. I got really into like long distance running, and I was doing a lot of trail running at the time. And it was those like long meandering runs by myself that I was like truly able to process a lot of that experience. Charlie and Kate, who own Eight Limbs and are like my coaches and best friends, they okay there's a lot here. The big thing is I've been coaching at the gym for a while. I have been competing for a while. I exist in a space in the gym that's like people are watching me, they're looking at me, they're like watching what I do. So I have to, like, I'm always conscientious of how I'm carrying myself in this space and how I'm interacting with folks. And like being kind and being friendly. And like I remember when I was going through like the thick of it. I didn't want to be in the gym because I didn't want people to look at me with these expectations and me just be like I want to just like be here. And like I don't want to be the nice one. Like I don't want to ask you how your day is; like I don't want to give you space right now. And I don't want you to ask me about mine. Like sometimes I just would like to come here and be anonymous. And that's hard. And like that's fine. That's okay. So I remember like a lot of that processing just came from like the physical aspects of like running which was huge. But when I slowly like came back in, my team and Charlie and Kate were at my dad's funeral. they were like they're offering support during like the shittiest times. Kate also lost her mom and like just sitting there, like I remember sitting there after the training one time for like hours talking to Kate about like my experience of her experience and just commiserating in that. And then like also my teammates were just like like people didn't have to say anything, they just were there. And like the energy that they brought just being around me and like giving me the space that I needed was awesome and like truly uplifting. And then when I did decide that I like was ready to start getting back into camp and competing. again my first fight back after my dad passed was for the WBC title, and it was like a huge fight and it was big and it was like the first amateur WBC title in Muay Thai in the States and the first women's one. and like my whole team came out to support, and because you're always going through shit and like you share so much out to the public but these people are around you all the time and they're like seeing you work and they're seeing you go through things and like these emotions through the gym and just giving space for that was like huge and supporting me through that was huge. Like they didn't have to say much they didn't have to say anything at all they were just there. Yeah, sometimes that is exactly what you need. That means the most. You just need people there. Yeah. And not just when you're going through the thick of it, but the time after, like the months after, just people being there and that's it. That's it, just being there. So that's so amazing that you have that and you were given that and continue to have that as your communityfor your own personal goals. And that's always been something that I've struggled with in Muay, where it's just like, why do I tell my story? People don't give a fuck. Like, people don't care. And like I was pretty open about, like my Struggles with grief with my dad, and like a lot of people reached out and like I was just like wow, I guess a lot of people are watching and they have experienced the same thing. And like just being like, yeah, this fucking sucks. Yeah, and it's hard to be vulnerable like that, you know, especially if, like you said, you're a coach and you're trying to just put on this happy face and be there for other people. And you just don't want to fucking do it because you're dealing with your own shit. So to get to that point where you feel comfortable, like okay, maybe I can let people in and just ask for support or just say that I'm not 100. I'm sure that that was really healing for you too to be like oh people do care. We're all human. We all need that reassurance that people do give a shit, and that's okay. And that's great that people showed up for you in a way that you weren't even expecting. Yeah, it was awesome. That's great. That's so amazing. So, in addition to that, I'm sure being involved with the community and all things with the sport in general has led to so much growth in your 10 years of so many different things. Not just growing a community, but growing your skills and physical abilities and your mental strength within yourself. Do you think that Muay Thai has also helped? you become more of a confident person or you said that you needed to be more aggressive in fighting but what about in real life? Are you being not more aggressive but has it taught you to be more assertive or anything like that? Definitely because you knew Baby Janine. Baby Janine was loud and obnoxious and always trying to run her mouth. So it's like if anything it gave me actual confidence when what that was was just insecurities and being overly self-conscious and taking up space that I had no fucking no place taking up. So if anything now it's shown me that I always say I appreciate a quiet confidence which is like I'm more confident in like things I've overcome and like what I'm able to do. And like that gives me the confidence and ability to step back and like give space to people that actually need it. They're like I don't need to be fucking yelling and running my mouth and starting shit. And people are always like that's because you can beat them up. And I'm like no, that's so funny, I'm sorry. That's so funny. That has nothing to do with it because I'm like I am trained to fight, a skillset entering with the ref and judges. Like like what I'm not trying to win in street fights. It's not why I do this. You mean that doesn't apply to like the workplace or walking. into a Wawa or something. Wow! That's so weird. But it's like funny because I just recently kind of switched my whole career. During COVID, I went back to school and I got my master's in public health. And the past few years, I've been navigating a different career space. And in my current position, I have had to advocate for myself and my team. And if anything, the confidence that I've gotten doing Muay Thai and advocating for myself and my team in that space, and like actually understanding what confidence actually is now. And it is not being a dickhead to people. That's a good thing to live by. That like I've done more in my workplace. now where it's like I've spoken up for more people and myself in a way that I never even thought I was capable of doing. And I've also just become a better communicator. And like it's hard to say like is it Muay Thai or is it just getting older and life experience? I'm sure Muay Thai has helped a lot of it. But like even my coach and I, we communicate way better than we did in the beginning. And it's like a lot of it is just having this experience in this space, in the space of the gym and in the space of competition and Muay, where it's like I've been able to be vulnerable and voice my opinions and have hard conversations. And I've spent years. having really hard conversations. And now it's easier for me to do it, where, like before, I was awful at communicating and would just like not speak up, not say anything. So it's definitely, definitely given me the skills outside of it. That's really awesome to hear. And also, that is also a tangible goal that you can see yourself progressing. That's super awesome because communication is so important. And it's so hard. Communication is so hard. It doesn't matter how good you are at it; it's so hard. I'm always going to be scared that whatever I say is going to make that person feel awful. Right? And the thing about communicating. is that once you say it you can't take it back. Even if you're like, oh, I didn't mean to say that. Guess what? It still resonates. It still could just have an effect on somebody else. And I think it's cool too because when we come back to this idea of confidence, another manifestation of confidence is being able to be like, I said and did this thing, and that wasn't right. That was fucked up. Or just being like, I said and did this thing, and then you told me you actually gave me your perspective. And I have the ability and confidence and self-awareness to be like, you're right, I was wrong. And I think that's huge too. Absolutely. It's so important. It's so important to have good relationships and just have a better life. All of those things are so crucial and so critical. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. So, communication super important, not just in your personal life but in your career as well, which you mentioned. And along with your career, you have your career, you have your personal life, you have Muay Thai and other activities. How do you balance it all out? Yeah, making weight is a part of it. So, like living a healthy lifestyle is just like something that, and like being wanting to like feel well enough to go and train, that all comes with just like lifestyle changes. Like I don't go out much. Uh I do but like it is also really important to foster friendships and personal life and things that aren't Muay. And this is something I've been like really trying to come back to after I lost it for a really long time. And then also one thing that's like really important with it is being okay with prioritizing things and like being flexible that those priorities are going to change. Sometimes when you're in fight camp you prioritize fighting and you prioritize training. And then when you have that lull in competition like a time like this time of year, you can then let Muay Thai take a backseat and then you can hit up the friends. that you didn't talk to when you're in in fight camp. And this past year for me has been very much like my priorities got out of whack. I got really bad at balancing things, and my efforts are really put into better balancing. And another thing that is really important is communicating, communicating with your friends. I'm in fight camp; I'm going to kind of be out of touch. I need to prioritize training; I need to prioritize recovery. I'm going to be tired; I'm going to be spent. I would love to see you; I just can't see you at this time. And then being intentional when it's over, following up with those things, whether it's at work, too, and like being like I'm in camp I'm I don't hate you I'm just miserable because I'm tired and all I'm thinking about is fighting. So that being a huge thing. And then for me like I'm okay with my career I could be a fucking CEO if I wanted but like I don't want to be a I don't like I it's very important for me that the job that I that I do and the work that I do is like really important. So like I work in community outreach and I work with teenagers. I work with communities in Philadelphia I do like gun violence prevention type work and just like health stuff in communities. I don't make a million dollars. And to me it's very important to have like a work-life balance where like the type of work I'm doing is fulfilling and important, but like I don't have to do it on a level where it consumes my life. And, like to me that is okay. And some people, their career is like their main thing; to me I need to be able to balance it also with Muay Thai and riding bikes, which is something I do a lot too. That's so important. Just knowing that is what you want and that's okay. And I think that more people need to take that advice and to just look inward and be like, is this really what I want, or is this what society telling me that I want? And once you figure out what you actually want and separate that from whatever the hell society is telling you to do, it is so liberating. So, that's so hard. For years, for years, I underplayed Muay Thai. I would hi, I would, I mean, I always geek out about it, but I would always be like, this can't be the thing. This can't be just the thing, because a lot of that is society being like, I have to have a family, I have to be in a relationship, I have to be wanting kids, I have to be owning houses. And like, I tried that path in a very traditional way. It wasn't fulfilling in a way that I needed it to be. And like, I think it's okay. That's okay. But like, unlearning that and not falling victim to that is so fucking hard. It is really hard. It is really hard,
but I think that also in the word confidence is exactly that:it is the ability to know what truly aligns with you and your core values, and putting yourself in a position that is in alignment with that. Having the courage to put yourself in places that may feel uncomfortable, but it is in alignment with what you want. Yeah, yeah, that's huge. That's a great perspective. It's hard to do. Yeah, it is really hard to do. So it's awesome that you're doing that. Yeah, try, and it's great. It's great for almost 10 years. So with that,
I want to ask:what advice would you give to someone who may be just starting Muay Thai or might want to get. into the sport. What advice do you have for them? The biggest thing, especially with like a barrier to starting in the physical sense, I hate when people are like, I have to get into shape to start. And I'm like, no, you get into shape by doing it. Don't feel like you need to go run a 5k before you start Muay Thai. Like, it's all part of the process. I think another big thing is like gyms and spaces are really impactful, too. So I think like reaching out to people that are in the sport. I always have folks reaching out to me, and like granted, there's always going to be biases, and some spaces work for me that don't work for others. But I think being aware. of your level of comfort in these spaces and trying to like ask around and try out different gyms. And like, there's always this narrative of like gym hopping is bad. Yeah, if you're a high-level fighter and you have like a really ingrained relationship with your coaches and they've given you shit for years, then yeah, gym hopping is bad. But if you are like a general practitioner and you're uncomfortable in a gym and like it's not giving you what you need, find somewhere else; find somewhere that's going to foster your like want to keep coming back. So I think that's like another thing that's. And also, when stuff gets hard, there's a time when things get hard where you do really need to be like all right I need to take a step back. But like also like you can probably just work through, and it's important to identify when that's the case. I think that's all really good advice, especially I think the part you said about people wanting to get in shape before they actually start training Muay Thai. I think that that concept can be applied to all things in life. People try to prepare before they actually do the thing, but it's just because they're really scared to do the thing. So they're going to, I mean, I'm guilty of it. We all are. But call a duck a It's just just start. And like I always encourage people, and like I always am having, I always have like women and like queer folks that are just like want to but are hesitant. And it might not be Muay Thai; it might be like any martial art, Jiu Jitsu. And I always am having people reach out to me and like asking about gyms, and wanting to add a gym, wanting to leave. And like I love encouraging people to reach out and like talk to me or somebody that you feel comfortable with because that's the hardest part. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you were one of the people that got me starting to train Muay Thai. So thank you, and Rob Mack. And Rob Mack, it's always Rob Mack, is like. patient zero for Muay Thai. Yeah, yeah. So it was you two that got me training in Muay Thai, and I absolutely love it. So I encourage other people to do the same. And something else that I thought was really great that you mentioned is that in your encouragement with people, you seem very, what's the word? Like, I really appreciate when I'm new to something, and somebody is overly helpful and, like, takes your hand and introduces you to people and makes you feel like they want you there. Because nothing is worse than showing up to a place where you just know nobody, and you are not skilled at the thing at all. And you're a novice, complete beginner. And the person that you might have known or something like that just is like, Oh hi. And then that's it. And just leaves you to die. Yeah. But when somebody takes you by the hand and introduces you to people and is really encouraging and is like, Oh, you know, like, this is this, this is this person, this is this person; like, gets you introduced to all these people and involved in the conversations and explains things to you, it makes it so much more of a great experience. Yeah. And this is super important. So in addition to also ride bikes a lot. And there's this program that in Philly that's called like the Philly Devo program. It's all volunteer. run and they provide spaces for like women, trans, femme, non-binary folks to ride bikes. And there's like a road race, a road riding one, mountain biking one, a gravel biking one. And it's all people just like trying to get more representation in the sport. But it's like this space of we're gonna hold your hand and we're gonna introduce you to these folks, and we're gonna give you the skills to be able to ride bikes and race bikes and find routes. And it was going through that program for mountain biking that like got me into racing and riding bikes. But that also showed me like this is so important to community building and to making people like want to continue doing the sport. So it was like how can I take this concept and bring it to Muay Thai? Like, how can I do that? There's one thing of getting people in the door, but getting them to stay and feel comfortable staying, it's so hard. I love all of that so much, making people feel like they're involved and you want them there. Not not like, oh you can you can come; like I want you to come. Will you come to class? I want you to be there. Let's hang out with all these people. I'm going to get you involved in the conversation. It's the inclusivity and the involvement that people feel that really do I feel make people feel seen and Heard which is so important. Yeah, making them wanting to come back. So I love that. That's great. Yeah. So with that being said, now it's time to transition into our fun questions, which is my favorite part. Okay. So something I always ask on this podcast is who is one person that you are grateful for and why? Well, considering this like Muay Thai talk, right? Can it be two people? I'll let it slide. It could be two people, Charlie and Kate from 8 Lens. Like it's huge. We're currently renovating the gym space now, and this is like the millionth time I've helped them like move and renovate a space. We've grown so much together like we've. watched each other become different people. I've watched them in their journey as coaches, business owners, parents, people, humans, and like they've watched me through the same. And it's just like I've been able to take like really big leaps in the sport and in life knowing that if I needed to, I could fucking sleep on their couch. If I needed to, like they would help me find a job. It makes it easier to take big scary, scary steps when you know there's like somebody that's gonna catch you if shit were to go awry. So like them, also Craig and JL, who are like my two lifers outside of Muay Thai too. That's four people. I know we can discount it. all as one big person. All right, it's just one big person. Okay, well, I loved all of that. So, it can say we'll allow it. So next question is, what are you currently listening to? It does not have to be something that is new. It's just what is on your current rotation. Oh, that's good. So, Julian Baker and Torres came out with that fucking like queer country song that is a bop, and I cannot stop listening to it. Next question is, do you have any rituals or traditions before a competition? And if so, what are they? That's a good question. So, when I first started fighting, I was way more ritualistic. And like, in Muay Thai, it's just kind of ingrained in the sport too, which is awesome. Like, there's the white crews that has how you seal the ring when you get in, like your actions when you get in the ring. And it got to the point earlier in competition where it was like be in the way where I'd be like I have to be having these. I wore these necklaces, and I had to give them to somebody else to wear them. And then, like, it was when I like did more tournaments, like when you just got to fight, like you just fight. And then, when I was doing like kickboxing tournaments and international tournaments, you just fucking fight, and that like kind of got me away from those rituals, and that was like freeing in. a way. But there's one thing that I'm always known to do, and I've probably seen every single episode. I could tell you when Guy Fieri likes or doesn't like a spot. The prime years were like the early middle years, and they get a little weird later on. I've probably seen every single episode of Diners, Drive-Ins, and So would you say that's like a superstition? If you don't watch it, then you It's like my comfort. It's like my blanket. It became a ritual because it was just always on in the hotel rooms. It's always on TV. I love that. That's great! Like, I'm like, if it's not on, I'm like, what the fuck? Giving Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives is bullshit. Yeah. You're trying to go to Flavortown. The hell? What gives? Yeah. All right. Next question is,
and this one's specifically for you:If you could be best friends with one of Taylor Swift's eras, which one would it be and why? Oh my God, I love this question for myself too! This is so hard. And I think, like any true fucking Swiftie, it depends. I want to say 1989 era Taylor Swift because I feel like that's like fun, but we're also like a little bit more evolved than, say, Red. Like, I'd want to hang out with Red, but I'd also want Red to like go home. But like, 1989 feels like your fun best friend. But in all honesty, I feel like a now time I'd be more of like, like a midnights, I'd want to hang out with a midnights Taylor. Like, I'd want to, like, I don't know, drink wine out of like empty jar glasses. Like that's what I feel like I am now. Like let's make dinner together and talk about our breakup. I love that answer. I didn't really think about it when I wrote the question for you, but now I'm thinking about it. And your answer is perfect. You know, the 1989 Taylor, I would, I would probably say the same. And I'm thinking about Red, and you're exactly right. I'd want to hang out with Red era, but I'd be like, Oh, you know, I'm just going to you make me feel. That's a great answer. Okay, so next question. What is the most unusual food that you've ever tried and did you like it? Ooh, that's tough. So I've been to Thailand a few times for Muay Thai, and there's always durian, right? The fruit that's stinky and smells. Oh right, I'm curious, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. And like anytime you're in there's like signs everywhere of like cartoon versions of this fruit with like a big X through it, like don't bring durian on this flight or this bus, cause it. And it's like, okay, it's all right. It smells like shit and the texture is like kind of weird. I don't think I like ate it and was like that's cool, I ate durian. I don't know if I'll ever do that again. The only reason why I know what that is is from the Legend of Really. Yeah. But I have heard that it smells bad. What does it smell like? Smell like farts. Yeah. Why would you want to eat that? Yeah. I don't care if it tastes good or not. You got to smell it first. No thanks. Thank you, next. Okay.
Last question:Are hot dogs a And defend your... Yeah. Why would they not be? I mean, I don't think I consider hot dogs to be a but is a Stromboli a...? Ooh, that's a good that's a good argument. Is the parameter of a sandwich being the guess? Like, I don't think I'd consider a taco a but I would consider a hot dog a sandwich just because I feel like there's one there's one universal. treat of a it is the bread and being like between a bread. So like, is a hoagie a? Just because it's like, just because bread is cut that way and it's in like a roll. Same, same with a. Yeah, I mean, I don't have I don't have an argument to it. It's just because my universal definition of a sandwich is it has to be bread. So like, a taco, not a hot dog. A what about like an English muffin though? Does that count as bread? That is a bread product. Okay, yeah. Okay, but like a taco isn't a bread product. Yeah, an interesting take. Tortillas, I respect it. No, yeah, tortilla is definitely not bread. Yeah, well, I respect that. Even one grain of flour, I respect your opinions. on sandwiches and hot dogs. Thanks, I guess a hamburger would then be a sandwich too. Definitely. All right, well thank you again so much for doing this. Yeah, this was great. Thank you. This was awesome. Like I said, I never reflect on this shit. And like this past year has really been like a huge reflection time for me. And like a lot of it was like I was in a relationship for a really long time, and that relationship kind of coincided with Muay. They were a Muay Thai person, and then like I could pursue this thing with their support. And then like that support started to waver towards the end. It like grew into like we just were two separate people. And like I made like a big jump and change by like leaving that and moving back to the city. And this past year has been like redefining myself, who I am, the people that I spend time with, the way I define myself. Muay Thai is still a huge, huge part of that. But this past year was like the longest break I ever took from Muay Thai because I had to step away from it and be like, who am I if I didn't have this? And it's huge. That really is huge. It's hard to do. Yeah, it is hard to do. And then, you know, like half the time you're still trying to like hold on. And then you're just like, but by me holding on to this thing right now, everything else is falling apart. and I need to figure that out. So I'm really proud of you that you did that because it is really hard. Thanks! Like, that's not that is not something to scoff at and just to be like, oh, you know, whatever. Yeah. Another one of my accomplishments. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna minimize. No, that's huge. So, yeah. And it's cool because, because I've done that, I've been able to like slowly introduce Muay Thai back in. And like it's in a healthy way. And like my last fight in my last camp was, it sucked, and it was hard. And there were things that like I'm still learning and growing through and like piecing back together. Muay Thai is still a huge thing. but it's not everything. And like that's okay. And like I'm still trying to define for myself what is greatness, and can I reach the level that I want to be at with balance and with other things in life? Yeah, no, all of that is so important. Like you said before, you have to shift your priorities, and that is just like a never-ending thing. You know you don't shift your priorities once and then you're once and done. You know you grow older, but at the same time you're growing as a person, and those priorities need to shift to be able to fit with whatever you change, and that's okay. All right, folks. Well, that just about wraps up another episode. of The Underwire. A huge thank you to Janine for joining us today and sharing her journey through Muay Thai, how it shaped her resilience, and even helped her navigate through some of life's toughest moments. I hope this conversation gave you a fresh perspective on the power of movement, and not just for physical strength, but for mental and emotional growth too. Whether it's Muay Thai or something totally different, finding an outlet that challenges you and pushes you forward can make all the difference. If you've enjoyed this, I'd love it if you could take a moment to leave a five-star rating because it really helps more. listeners like you discover this show. Perhaps send this episode to a friend who might enjoy it, or as the great Super Mario essay once said, per chance stomped hurts anyone. Anyway, if you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can also follow The Underwire and send me a DM on Instagram at theunderwirepod. I'd love to hear your thoughts and any personal experiences you'd like to share. And as always, if you have questions or topics you'd want me to, or even if you just wanna say hi, please reach out. If you love what I'm doing here at The Underwire and want to support the show, feel free to check out the Buy Me A Coffee page listed in the show notes or on the Instagram link in my bio. Thank you so, so much for listening. I can't say enough how much I appreciate all of your support. I'll catch you on the next episode, but until then, embrace your inner weirdo and just know I'm rooting for you and I believe in you. See ya.