Play Isn’t Optional: The Secret Ingredient to a Happier Work Life (with Blake Cohen)

On this episode, we’re diving into the importance of play — and how bringing more joy, laughter, and connection into your work life might just be the key to creating a healthier, happier you.

Joining us is our special guest, Blake Cohen. Blake is an incredible Corporate Speaker, TEDx Speaker, and Work Culture Expert whose mission is to transform workplace dynamics by fostering connection, purpose, and joy. He brings a powerful blend of lived experience and academic insight, currently pursuing his doctorate in Leadership and Organizational Psychology, with a master’s in Leadership and a bachelor’s in Psychology already under his belt.

Before focusing on executive coaching, corporate speaking, and consulting, Blake worked in the mental health and recovery space, helping people rebuild their lives and rediscover purpose. He’s also a best-selling author and the host of The Workplace Wonderer podcast, where he explores what it really means to feel human at work.

In our conversation, we talk about how leadership, culture, and authenticity all intersect — and why embracing play, laughter, and human connection in the workplace isn’t just “nice to have,” but essential for well-being.

WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT:

• Why play and joy aren’t distractions — they’re powerful tools for better work
• The link between leadership, trust, and company culture
• How to recognize burnout and micromanagement
• Blake’s journey from recovery to leadership
• What neuroscience says about laughter, creativity, and connection at work
• How to bring more fun, authenticity, and humanity into your day-to-day

Blake's Links:

• Visit Blake's website: https://blakeevancohen.com/
• Watch Blake's TedX Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQF_kmOcJt0
• Follow Blake on Instagram: blake_e_cohen 
• Connect with Blake on LinkedIn

• ALL LINKS HERE
• Instagram: @TheUnderwireOfficial
• Now on TikTok!: @TheUnderwireOfficial
• 1:1 Coaching: START HERE to Learn More!

Transcript

1:57

[Jess .] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of The Underwire,[Jess .] supporting you when life needs a lift.[Jess .] I'm your host Jess,[Jess .] and today I want to start by asking you a question.[Jess .] What if the biggest key to feeling happier and more productive at[Jess .] work isn't working harder,[Jess .] but remembering how to have fun?[Jess .] What if we've been getting workplace culture wrong this entire time?[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] you probably already guessed that it's not about having more pizza[Jess .] parties or putting ping pong tables in the break room or having an[Jess .] employee of the month,[Jess .] but something much deeper.[Jess .] What if the secret to better leadership,[Jess .] a better time at work,[Jess .] and a better life starts with something as simple as laughter?[Jess .] Today we're talking all about something we all experience but rarely[Jess .] stop to question— how the culture we work in affects our mental health,[Jess .] our relationships,[Jess .] and even our sense of purpose.[Jess .] We're diving into what happens when we bring more humanity into the[Jess .] workplace and how things like joy,[Jess .] laughter,[Jess .] and connection can completely change how we experience our jobs and our lives.[Jess .] Joining us today is the incredible Blake Cohen.[Jess .] Blake is a work culture expert who is basically on a mission to[Jess .] improve the systems we live and work within and to reframe the way[Jess .] organizations operate by bringing play,[Jess .] connection,[Jess .] and purpose into the workplace.[Jess .] Blake is a corporate and TEDx speaker,[Jess .] a best-selling author,[Jess .] and the host of the Workplace Wanderer podcast.[Jess .] He also holds advanced degrees in leadership and psychology,[Jess .] and he's on his way to earning a doctorate in leadership and[Jess .] organizational psychology.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] he really knows what he's talking about here.[Jess .] But before all of that,[Jess .] though,[Jess .] Blake's story began in a very different place.[Jess .] After years of struggling with addiction,[Jess .] he found recovery and completely rebuilt his life,[Jess .] transforming that journey into a mission to help others heal,[Jess .] reconnect,[Jess .] and rediscover meaning in their work and beyond.[Jess .] His experience in the recovery and mental health space gave him a[Jess .] rare firsthand understanding of what people really need to feel[Jess .] valued and supported.[Jess .] Now he's using that insight to help leaders and organizations[Jess .] understand that things like laughter,[Jess .] trust,[Jess .] and play are not just nice-to-haves.[Jess .] They are essential for thriving teams and happier humans.[Jess .] And yes,[Jess .] Blake reminds us that we're not just employees.[Jess .] We are humans.[Jess .] Ever caught yourself thinking, 'Why does work have to feel this[Jess .] heavy?' This one is for you.[Jess .] Blake has such a cool way of breaking down what it actually means to[Jess .] bring more humanity into our workplaces without all the corporate fluff.[Jess .] We get into everything from micromanagement and burnout to bringing[Jess .] joy back into your day-to-day and why embracing a little more[Jess .] playfulness might just make things better,[Jess .] not only at work,[Jess .] but also in life.[Jess .] I'm so excited for this one,[Jess .] so let's get into it.[Jess .] Blake,[Jess .] thank you so much for being here today.[Jess .] I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.[Blake Cohen] Thank you for having me.[Blake Cohen] I'm excited about the conversation as well.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] you're actually,[Jess .] I had mentioned this to you,[Jess .] you're actually one of the first people on this podcast that I[Jess .] didn't previously know as a friend for years and years and years.[Jess .] So for people listening that would like to know,[Jess .] Blake and I were introduced through our mutual friend,[Jess .] Eric Witte,[Jess .] who some of you might remember from a past episode where we talked[Jess .] about his journey with recovery.[Jess .] Blake and Eric actually used to work together in the recovery space.[Jess .] And when Eric connected us.[Jess .] I could immediately tell Blake was an A-plus dude,[Jess .] somebody I would want on my team.[Jess .] And Blake,[Jess .] you're somebody who gets how important real human connection is,[Jess .] especially in places where we spend most of our lives.[Jess .] Like work.[Jess .] I can't wait to dive deep into all of that.[Jess .] But to get this party started,[Jess .] can you take us back to those days and share some of the most[Jess .] important things you've learned from all of the years of experience[Jess .] in working in recovery?[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] well,[Blake Cohen] and I first I want to say that,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] you say I'm the first person you're talking to or one of the first[Blake Cohen] that you didn't know before,[Blake Cohen] but you have a very natural draw to you,[Blake Cohen] I guess,[Blake Cohen] or just maybe you just feel familiar to me.[Blake Cohen] So it doesn't feel like we've never known each other for a long time.[Blake Cohen] So I just want to throw that out there.[Blake Cohen] So,[Blake Cohen] if there's a level of comfortability that people hear,[Blake Cohen] I just think that maybe it's because who we were connected by,[Blake Cohen] or whatever it is,[Blake Cohen] but it doesn't,[Blake Cohen] it doesn't feel like we're strangers.[Jess .] I agree.[Jess .] Maybe it was a past life.[Jess .] Maybe we were like,[Jess .] like BFFs in a past life.[Jess .] But this is very comfortable.[Jess .] Thank you for making me feel comfortable also.[Jess .] I appreciate you.[Blake Cohen] You're welcome.[Blake Cohen] OK,[Blake Cohen] so working in recovery.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] it's interesting because you where I met Eric and where I worked with Eric.[Blake Cohen] actually is really what set the stage for me for the transition that[Blake Cohen] I made into organizational and leadership psychology and trying to[Blake Cohen] study our workplaces and understand.[Blake Cohen] how we can tweak them so that people work better together and make[Blake Cohen] them more human and more collaborative and more productive as a result.[Blake Cohen] And it was the place that we had worked together that really showed[Blake Cohen] me a level of authenticity that you should bring to the office.[Blake Cohen] And they really promoted this idea of like,[Blake Cohen] we don't want you to pretend to be someone else.[Blake Cohen] We just want you to be you because you are.[Blake Cohen] You are what we hired.[Blake Cohen] You're the person we hired.[Blake Cohen] You're the one that brings all the value.[Blake Cohen] It's who you are as a person.[Blake Cohen] And in the past,[Blake Cohen] even though I had some great jobs prior.[Blake Cohen] Working in recovery,[Blake Cohen] it was very much like when you walk in this door,[Blake Cohen] you need to be buttoned up.[Blake Cohen] It's all about the presentation that we present to the clients.[Blake Cohen] It's an image thing.[Blake Cohen] And this other place was like,[Blake Cohen] well,[Blake Cohen] that's kind of BS because how else are we supposed to develop these[Blake Cohen] authentic connections with our clients to be able to help them?[Blake Cohen] And plus,[Blake Cohen] we're working with people who've gone through their own addiction issues,[Blake Cohen] right,[Blake Cohen] or currently trying to recover from them.[Blake Cohen] And as somebody who's in recovery and who's worked with hundreds of[Blake Cohen] people trying to get clean and sober in the professional manner and[Blake Cohen] in a personal manner,[Blake Cohen] we have really good bullshit detectors.[Blake Cohen] And we can tell when someone's being fake with us.[Blake Cohen] And there's that wall that ends up making us feel really[Blake Cohen] uncomfortable when someone is trying to put on airs like there's[Blake Cohen] something that they're not.[Blake Cohen] So the best way to connect with the clients was through genuine authenticity.[Blake Cohen] So that place that I worked with Eric really taught me to stand on[Blake Cohen] my own two feet and to be who I am and let me play with figuring out[Blake Cohen] who I am as a professional merged with personal Blake.[Jess .] I love what you said about the bullshit detectors because that is so true.[Jess .] And how many times in your life have you experienced that from the[Jess .] other end and immediately you're just like, 'This person,[Jess .] what are they getting at?[Jess .] What's their motive?[Jess .] This is not them.'.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] and you know what's interesting is that as I go through school and I[Blake Cohen] get to work with all these incredible leaders from some of the most[Blake Cohen] incredible institutions,[Blake Cohen] I'm learning that there's a lot of overlap in people who have gone[Blake Cohen] through an addiction issue.[Blake Cohen] Versus highly successful individuals.[Blake Cohen] And part of that is they are very in tune with that intuition.[Blake Cohen] And jokingly,[Blake Cohen] I just called it a bullshit detector.[Blake Cohen] But really,[Blake Cohen] it's that gut feeling that tells us that throws off alarm bells or[Blake Cohen] throws off happiness or connection bells and says that this person[Blake Cohen] is somebody I can trust or somebody I can't trust.[Blake Cohen] And a lot of really great leaders end up listening to that intuition.[Blake Cohen] The issue is that we often don't know how to listen to that.[Blake Cohen] And especially when we're going through our addiction issues,[Blake Cohen] we listen to that intuition for more for like safety reasons or for[Blake Cohen] finding ways to support our habit.[Blake Cohen] But eventually we can turn that intuition because I think it's a[Blake Cohen] muscle listening to your intuition.[Blake Cohen] We can eventually turn that into something that helps us be[Blake Cohen] successful in life as well.[Jess .] Those are so many great points about intuition being a muscle and[Jess .] something that you need to practice using so that you can be in tune[Jess .] with yourself and what feels like it could be truly in alignment[Jess .] with the person that you are.[Jess .] How are some ways that you have practiced that intuition muscle?[Blake Cohen] Through trial and error,[Blake Cohen] really.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] most of the time it's learning from my mistakes and going, 'Wow,[Blake Cohen] okay,[Blake Cohen] I felt something that was off here.[Blake Cohen] I should have listened to it.' And learning then from those mistakes[Blake Cohen] when that feeling does pop up that there's...[Blake Cohen] Some red flags or something drawing me towards somebody that I[Blake Cohen] should continue to explore that further and not ignore those gut feelings,[Blake Cohen] that intuition.[Blake Cohen] And eventually you start becoming really adept at connecting with[Blake Cohen] that inner voice and you let it guide you.[Blake Cohen] Now,[Blake Cohen] I don't think there's any human being on earth that does that 100% of the time.[Blake Cohen] We always let our mind talk our gut out of things.[Blake Cohen] And that's just a very natural human thing.[Blake Cohen] But the better that we can be,[Blake Cohen] the higher success rate that we can have of listening to our gut,[Blake Cohen] I think it just gets stronger and stronger and stronger over time.[Jess .] So I'm really curious about how maybe your intuition or your gut[Jess .] feeling about your workplace experiences,[Jess .] how did that spark your passion for leadership and workplace culture?[Blake Cohen] Good question.[Blake Cohen] Okay.[Blake Cohen] So prior to the place where I worked with Eric,[Blake Cohen] I had worked for a program for about six years and my plan was to stay there forever.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] I had worked in leadership.[Blake Cohen] I was in a director position.[Blake Cohen] It was a small program,[Blake Cohen] but it was really beautiful because we got to all wear a bunch of different hats.[Blake Cohen] And the person that I had as a CEO was an enormous mentor of mine.[Blake Cohen] And he really pushed me to go back to school to become an addictions[Blake Cohen] counselor and kept pushing me towards growth.[Blake Cohen] And it was cool because then I would get to be able to step in.[Blake Cohen] Like a group therapist didn't show up.[Blake Cohen] I can go run the group.[Blake Cohen] I had the ability to do that.[Blake Cohen] I can carry a small caseload,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] whatever it was that I had to do.[Blake Cohen] And I got really good at working with families as well in that role.[Blake Cohen] And that was going really well until the organization ended up[Blake Cohen] buying a much larger property.[Blake Cohen] And I think,[Blake Cohen] out of fear or concern or worry that they maybe weren't going to get[Blake Cohen] a return on their investment,[Blake Cohen] they ended up switching out who was at the helm of the company.[Blake Cohen] And so I went from having this psychologist as a boss to having[Blake Cohen] somebody who had never worked in any type of mental health care before as our boss.[Blake Cohen] There was this incredible culture shift that happened.[Blake Cohen] And I think I left within six weeks.[Blake Cohen] I left within six weeks out of a place that I planned on working at forever.[Blake Cohen] And I was extremely happy.[Blake Cohen] And I wasn't the only one.[Blake Cohen] A bunch of people that I really cared about were fired for almost no reason.[Blake Cohen] A bunch of other people who worked there who were great people were leaving.[Blake Cohen] It just,[Blake Cohen] there was this massive culture shift because of the leadership change.[Blake Cohen] And you know what?[Blake Cohen] Like they had a different approach.[Blake Cohen] I can't fault them.[Blake Cohen] I don't want to speak ill of them.[Blake Cohen] It was just a different approach than what we were used to and what[Blake Cohen] we all signed up for.[Blake Cohen] But that part started interesting me because there was this weird[Blake Cohen] grieving period that came after that whole process of leaving this[Blake Cohen] job that I planned on being forever.[Blake Cohen] And I just got really interested in understanding how.[Blake Cohen] One person at the top of an organization can have such a great[Blake Cohen] effect on everybody else within that company and really shift the culture.[Blake Cohen] It was my first time really taking a step back and going, 'Okay,[Blake Cohen] organizations do have a culture.[Blake Cohen] There are these living,[Blake Cohen] breathing things.' What is it about one person's impact or their[Blake Cohen] approach to leadership that can make or break a culture or create[Blake Cohen] one and then destroy one?[Blake Cohen] How does that work?[Blake Cohen] So I started doing some reading.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] I think I picked up some of the basics,[Blake Cohen] went for Brene Brown,[Blake Cohen] went for Simon Sinek,[Blake Cohen] Gary Vaynerchuk,[Blake Cohen] Jocko Wilnick,[Blake Cohen] all the famous ones,[Blake Cohen] and started reading some of their ideas about leadership.[Blake Cohen] And I just found a sense of passion reading it.[Blake Cohen] I really love and thought it was so interesting,[Blake Cohen] the amount of influence and motivation and all of the approaches[Blake Cohen] that they took to understanding much larger systems and how that one[Blake Cohen] person can have this huge impact.[Blake Cohen] And so that intrigued me.[Blake Cohen] So I went back to school.[Blake Cohen] To go for a master's degree in leadership.[Blake Cohen] I just started Googling around and found this program near me called[Blake Cohen] Nova Southeastern University.[Blake Cohen] It's a pretty big college down here.[Blake Cohen] And they offered this master's in leadership.[Blake Cohen] And just really without much research after that,[Blake Cohen] just dove right in.[Blake Cohen] And once that program ended,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] here I am with this master's in leadership,[Blake Cohen] but I'm working in the addiction treatment space or the mental[Blake Cohen] health treatment space and owning my own company.[Blake Cohen] Things were going really well,[Blake Cohen] but just felt there's that gut feeling.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] it kept showing up and there were these alarm bells going off,[Blake Cohen] going like, 'You're not on the right path.' You just started dipping[Blake Cohen] your toes in the right path.[Blake Cohen] And now you're going back towards the thing that wasn't right for you.[Blake Cohen] You've got to listen to that gut.[Blake Cohen] And so I made the decision to walk away from my company.[Blake Cohen] And even though things were going really well,[Blake Cohen] and listen to my gut,[Blake Cohen] try to really just trust the process,[Blake Cohen] have some faith—this is what my recovery has taught me to do.[Blake Cohen] Is that if I show up with the shovel.[Blake Cohen] My higher power will move mountains.[Blake Cohen] And I just went back to school to go for my doctorate in[Blake Cohen] organizational and leadership psychology and made this big career shift.[Blake Cohen] And it hasn't been easy making that transition.[Blake Cohen] Because I'm trying to make a name for myself in a new field,[Blake Cohen] I kind of felt like,[Blake Cohen] okay,[Blake Cohen] I'm really established in this one field.[Blake Cohen] It's just going to carry over to the next one.[Blake Cohen] And it's been a rebuilding process.[Blake Cohen] But I'm starting to see the signs of like,[Blake Cohen] okay,[Blake Cohen] you're on the right path.[Blake Cohen] Good things are happening.[Blake Cohen] It's going to work out for you.[Blake Cohen] So whether it works out in some grand fashion or this is like huge success or not,[Blake Cohen] I don't know.[Blake Cohen] It doesn't,[Blake Cohen] I don't have that same weight or pressure.[Blake Cohen] Like I feel like I have to be massively successful in this field,[Blake Cohen] like I did before.[Blake Cohen] It feels more like I'm doing something that I love.[Blake Cohen] And I love having conversations like this about the topic of org[Blake Cohen] psych or leadership psychology.[Blake Cohen] It's just so fascinating to me.[Jess .] I love everything that you just said.[Jess .] The part where you said that you needed to trust your gut.[Jess .] And I loved the phrase that you used,[Jess .] the show up with the shovel.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Jess .] I really like that.[Jess .] And you made a big career shift by trusting your gut and you were[Jess .] able to then see the signs that you're on the right path.[Jess .] What I'm curious about is what were those signs?[Jess .] How did you feel like you were on the right path?[Jess .] What was shown to you that you're on the right path?[Jess .] How do you know?[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] I think we judge those types of things based on our interactions with other people.[Blake Cohen] We use other people as indicators to help us understand if we're[Blake Cohen] doing something right or doing something wrong.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] that's feedback,[Blake Cohen] right?[Blake Cohen] That's how most humans operate successfully—by getting feedback from[Blake Cohen] the environment and making adaptations.[Blake Cohen] I think for me,[Blake Cohen] being in this program,[Blake Cohen] I'm around a lot of really brilliant people who work in this space,[Blake Cohen] and they have been very supportive of me.[Blake Cohen] The imposter syndrome in me wants to tell me that they're just doing that to be nice.[Blake Cohen] But if I look at patterns and I look at...[Blake Cohen] the big picture,[Blake Cohen] I see that most people are saying the same thing.[Blake Cohen] So it's the other people's support that's letting me know that,[Blake Cohen] hey,[Blake Cohen] you're on the right path.[Blake Cohen] You're doing the right thing.[Blake Cohen] Just keep at it.[Blake Cohen] How normal it is feeling how I feel right now at this point in a career transition.[Blake Cohen] And then there's stuff like the most recent validator was the TEDx[Blake Cohen] talk and the feedback I've gotten from doing a TEDx talk about the field.[Blake Cohen] For me,[Blake Cohen] the TEDx was sort of like this introduction to this world.[Blake Cohen] It was saying, 'Hi,[Blake Cohen] I'm Blake.[Blake Cohen] I'm here in this field now.[Blake Cohen] This is the impact I'm trying to make.' And so that coming out,[Blake Cohen] and even being accepted to do a TEDx talk,[Blake Cohen] and then being able to work really hard on it,[Blake Cohen] and follow all the way through to the end,[Blake Cohen] and then having it come out.[Blake Cohen] And then hearing people's feedback,[Blake Cohen] like, 'You hit the nail on the head,' or 'This is exactly what we[Blake Cohen] need in this world,' or 'We need more of this.' Thank you for[Blake Cohen] sharing that message.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] hearing stuff like that,[Blake Cohen] it's going, 'Okay.' I'm not only making a career transition,[Blake Cohen] but I have left a field in mental health care that I'm actually carrying with me.[Blake Cohen] And my skills from the prior field are now being brought over into[Blake Cohen] this org psych field and combining into something entirely new that[Blake Cohen] I can now offer people.[Jess .] I love how you were able to say that you can see that the skills[Jess .] that you've had previously are now transferred over into what you're doing now.[Jess .] So within that shift,[Jess .] you're still able to show up with all of those things that you've[Jess .] learned previously to make a bigger and better you doing the thing[Jess .] that lights you up the most.[Jess .] And that's awesome.[Jess .] That's so cool.[Jess .] And your TEDx,[Jess .] absolutely incredible.[Jess .] I've already given you many,[Jess .] many compliments.[Jess .] I think that it was outstanding.[Jess .] We're going to talk about your talk in a moment.[Jess .] But I wanted to go back to something you said about when you left[Jess .] your one job where you had a culture shift because of a leadership change.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Jess .] So there's that saying that people don't quit jobs,[Jess .] they quit bosses.[Jess .] And boy,[Jess .] can I fucking relate to that.[Jess .] I may or may not have had my own personal experiences with that,[Jess .] which we're not going to get into.[Jess .] But what I am curious about is in your experience,[Jess .] how much does leadership really shape the culture and what?[Jess .] Can leaders do to make sure that their people are actually feeling[Jess .] supported and want to stick around?[Blake Cohen] Okay,[Blake Cohen] so that's a great question.[Blake Cohen] It's a bit of a loaded question,[Blake Cohen] though.[Blake Cohen] Okay.[Blake Cohen] And I'm just going to say the reason why it's the difficult one to answer is because,[Blake Cohen] and this is a famous quote in almost every organizational

[Blake Cohen] psychologist's toolkit: 20:36

it depends.[Blake Cohen] And the impact a leader can have highly depends on the people who[Blake Cohen] are within the organization.[Blake Cohen] And if there's anything that we can learn from that is that leaders[Blake Cohen] need to remain adaptable,[Blake Cohen] highly in tune with the people that they work with,[Blake Cohen] and extremely emotionally intelligent.[Blake Cohen] They need to be able to control their emotions.[Blake Cohen] They need to be able to see the big picture and understand the[Blake Cohen] people that they're working with and then make adaptations to their[Blake Cohen] leadership style in order to meet the needs of the people they work with,[Blake Cohen] with,[Blake Cohen] of course,[Blake Cohen] the overall vision and goals of the organization in mind.[Blake Cohen] So it's sort of this balancing act of supporting your people and[Blake Cohen] meeting your people's needs and meeting them where they're at,[Blake Cohen] but also seeing how each of your people fit like puzzle pieces into[Blake Cohen] the organization's larger goals.[Blake Cohen] So you need to have a very broad perspective as a leader in order to be effective,[Blake Cohen] because then you can really mastermind and be the puppet master of[Blake Cohen] putting people where they need to be.[Blake Cohen] What leaders can do to destroy an organization is to adopt a very[Blake Cohen] tunnel vision type of approach.[Blake Cohen] And to go in and say, 'Okay,[Blake Cohen] I'm the boss.[Blake Cohen] You're going to listen to me.[Blake Cohen] I'm going to tell you what to do.[Blake Cohen] You're going to do that.[Blake Cohen] I don't care about who you are.[Blake Cohen] You are merely another number and you're here to do a job.' That is[Blake Cohen] not really leadership.[Blake Cohen] That is about ego and control.[Blake Cohen] And that's really rooted in insecurity.[Blake Cohen] So that's where that whole emotional intelligence comes in for a

[Blake Cohen] leader: 22:07

leaders need to be,[Blake Cohen] they need to be secure in who they are as a person so that then they[Blake Cohen] can understand who their people are as people.[Blake Cohen] So it's the biggest thing that I see a leader doing is coming in[Blake Cohen] with a need for control.[Blake Cohen] That's a huge mistake.[Blake Cohen] And micromanagement is one of the worst things.[Blake Cohen] And I'm sure you've experienced this.[Blake Cohen] It sounds like it's one of the worst things a leader can do.[Jess .] Boy,[Jess .] have I ever experienced it.[Jess .] But again,[Jess .] that's a topic for another day.[Jess .] We're not going to get into.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] and I just want to say why that's bad,[Blake Cohen] actually.[Blake Cohen] So the micromanagement,[Blake Cohen] and I kind of do want to get into it,[Blake Cohen] by the way.[Jess .] All right,[Jess .] let's talk about it.[Blake Cohen] The micromanagement piece is...[Blake Cohen] If I'm a micromanager,[Blake Cohen] let's say you're my employee,[Blake Cohen] right?[Blake Cohen] And I am your boss and I micromanage you all the time.[Blake Cohen] What underlying message am I sending to you?[Jess .] You're telling me that I'm incompetent,[Jess .] that I'm unable to do my job in a way that works for me.[Jess .] You are telling me that you don't trust me to be able to do my work.[Jess .] You are saying a lot of things.[Jess .] And did you notice that when you asked that question,[Jess .] there was zero hesitancy?[Jess .] I had the answer.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] clearly you've experienced it.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] And as you were saying all of those things,[Jess .] I felt a little,[Jess .] a little minor case of some PTSD come up because it really has been[Jess .] something that has been so prevalent in.[Jess .] probably my entire life,[Jess .] especially with the whole way of the standard style of work that[Jess .] people are expected to do.[Jess .] And you even mentioned something about this in your TED talk about[Jess .] you need to sit down and...[Jess .] shut up and be still and don't goof around.[Jess .] And that is,[Jess .] that is me like that at my core.[Jess .] That is me.[Jess .] I can't sit still.[Jess .] I can't shut up and I like to goof around,[Jess .] but at the same time I get my work done.[Jess .] And I am smart and I can do all of the things.[Jess .] But when you micromanage me and you tell me that you need to fit in[Jess .] this box and you can't be who you want to be and show up in a safe[Jess .] way as your authentic self,[Jess .] that...[Jess .] shuts me down and makes me feel terrible.[Jess .] And who wants to feel terrible being at work?[Blake Cohen] Have you ever been in a relationship,[Blake Cohen] a romantic one,[Blake Cohen] where you weren't trusted,[Blake Cohen] and the person says, 'I don't trust you?'.[Jess .] I have not,[Jess .] luckily.[Blake Cohen] What about friendships where trust was destroyed?[Jess .] Yes.[Blake Cohen] It creates this weird uneasiness that goes on within the[Blake Cohen] relationship where the person who's not trusted starts acting differently,[Blake Cohen] trying to earn trust back.[Blake Cohen] So they start behaving strangely and they're in this constant loop of...[Blake Cohen] I'm trying to earn your trust back.[Blake Cohen] But then there's self-sabotage where they start doing things behind[Blake Cohen] your back again because it's like this self-fulfilling prophecy.[Blake Cohen] And it becomes this whole weird dynamic between people when there's not trust there.[Blake Cohen] What we're describing here is the importance of why trust is at the[Blake Cohen] crux of a really strong organizational relationship— really is what it is.[Blake Cohen] And when we start looking at leadership and followership as a[Blake Cohen] relationship between the two entities,[Blake Cohen] we go back to what the most important aspect is.[Blake Cohen] In any relationship,[Blake Cohen] is trust.[Blake Cohen] And we need to,[Blake Cohen] one,[Blake Cohen] be trusted and we need to be able to trust as well.[Blake Cohen] And that's a really important dynamic and back and forth,[Blake Cohen] two-way street,[Blake Cohen] by the way,[Blake Cohen] that goes both ways.[Blake Cohen] But that trust,[Blake Cohen] the micromanagement,[Blake Cohen] the being overly controlling,[Blake Cohen] all of that is saying exactly what you said.[Blake Cohen] that I think you are incompetent and I don't trust you to do your job.[Blake Cohen] Everything that I do is going to be the right way to do it.[Blake Cohen] So you need to listen to me.[Blake Cohen] And it ends up creating this weird dynamic where the person in the[Blake Cohen] position feels like they need to do everything they can to gain the[Blake Cohen] approval of the leader.[Blake Cohen] And then they start turning.[Blake Cohen] That ends up going toxic and turning the other way.[Blake Cohen] There's resentment that ends up building.[Blake Cohen] And the relationship gets ruined and starts leading to negative outcomes.[Jess .] And also along with that,[Jess .] a lot of times there are expectations that shift and they're not consistent,[Jess .] which is brutal on anybody.[Jess .] Because if you don't know what to expect in any sort of relationship,[Jess .] especially at work in a dynamic where you're with a team and you have a leader.[Jess .] And there are expectations that are forever changing and nothing is consistent.[Jess .] How are you able to then develop a system that works and that is[Jess .] acceptable because you don't know what that is?[Blake Cohen] Right.[Blake Cohen] Exactly.[Blake Cohen] So,[Blake Cohen] yeah,[Blake Cohen] there's so many things that we can go into in going down this path[Blake Cohen] of like how important the leader is.[Blake Cohen] But ultimately,[Blake Cohen] even in flat structures where there's no.[Blake Cohen] They say that they're not hierarchical.[Blake Cohen] There's always somebody up top,[Blake Cohen] and people,[Blake Cohen] no matter what,[Blake Cohen] are going to look at that person for approval.[Blake Cohen] They're going to look for that person to model certain behaviors and[Blake Cohen] let them know what's okay,[Blake Cohen] what's not okay.[Blake Cohen] So,[Blake Cohen] whether it's a flat structure or hierarchical structure,[Blake Cohen] no matter what,[Blake Cohen] the leaders really set the tone for the culture of the environment.[Blake Cohen] And maybe they're not involved in everyday decisions,[Blake Cohen] but they're still setting the tone of how people are going to feel at work.[Blake Cohen] And that piece is often overlooked.[Jess .] Speaking of that,[Jess .] I now kind of want to get into everything that you discussed within[Jess .] your TEDx about bringing laughter and play to work.[Jess .] I want to ask why you believe those things are so important for[Jess .] leadership specifically.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] I think they're of the utmost importance because I think that we[Blake Cohen] need to be able to look at what's happening right now in our country,[Blake Cohen] actually the entire world,[Blake Cohen] really.[Blake Cohen] And what is being shown that we have this massive employee[Blake Cohen] engagement problem where people just feel disconnected from their[Blake Cohen] work roles or from their workplace.[Blake Cohen] And what my talk is really about,[Blake Cohen] when we talk about laughter and playfulness,[Blake Cohen] is there's really like two sides to it.[Blake Cohen] One is the human connection side.[Blake Cohen] And what laughter and playfulness has always served as is a way for[Blake Cohen] human beings to connect with each other on a deeper level.[Blake Cohen] The reason people are not engaged—rather than because their work is[Blake Cohen] not interesting—is because they're not connected to one another.[Blake Cohen] They're entering their workplace,[Blake Cohen] having to pretend and play a role of someone they're not.[Blake Cohen] And that's what kind of what I touched on earlier.[Blake Cohen] The way to create an engaged workforce is to build a team of people[Blake Cohen] who are connected on much deeper levels.[Blake Cohen] Playfulness and laughter and humor really serve as a great way to[Blake Cohen] make those connections.[Blake Cohen] The other side of it is about our well-being as human beings.[Blake Cohen] So work now is also much faster paced.[Blake Cohen] It's much more stressful.[Blake Cohen] And we are problem solving complex issues at a rate that we never have in history.[Blake Cohen] So imagine that we are a pressure cooker and the steam is just building up,[Blake Cohen] building up,[Blake Cohen] building up,[Blake Cohen] building up inside of us,[Blake Cohen] which is the steam is our cortisol levels,[Blake Cohen] our stress levels.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] throughout history,[Blake Cohen] laughter and playfulness have actually served as a natural way to relieve that stress.[Blake Cohen] It's a blow-off valve.[Blake Cohen] So for us to be able to...[Blake Cohen] To think clearly and continue to problem solve at the rate that we're doing,[Blake Cohen] laughter and playfulness serve as actually a very human and healthy[Blake Cohen] way to blow off that steam,[Blake Cohen] re-regulate those stress levels,[Blake Cohen] and allows us to see the bigger picture and to think a bit more clearly.[Jess .] You're really talking my language because I could resonate with[Jess .] everything you just said.[Jess .] Laughter in play for me in the workplace,[Jess .] you described that so perfectly about how...[Jess .] It reduces stress for yourself,[Jess .] but also for the team,[Jess .] builds trust.[Jess .] Even in your talk,[Jess .] you were talking exactly about this,[Jess .] about how it jumpstarts productivity,[Jess .] boosts creativity.[Jess .] And also you said that it can foster resilience during tough times.[Jess .] I'm a big proponent of that because to get through all of the stuff,[Jess .] you know,[Jess .] you got to make jokes about it.[Jess .] And that is totally,[Jess .] that's,[Jess .] that's how you got to live.[Jess .] You know,[Jess .] you cry.[Blake Cohen] Exactly.[Blake Cohen] I was just going to say,[Blake Cohen] how many times have you heard that?[Blake Cohen] If I don't laugh,[Blake Cohen] I'm going to cry.[Jess .] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] And so in the research for the talk,[Blake Cohen] so my original talk,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] we only had 10 minutes.[Blake Cohen] My original talk ended up being like 22 minutes because there were[Blake Cohen] so many cool stories that I wanted to include and so much cool data[Blake Cohen] that exists on this topic that I wanted to include.[Blake Cohen] But I started going like way back.[Blake Cohen] Like I'm talking caveman times.[Blake Cohen] And there were actually signs to show that cavemen used to draw[Blake Cohen] funny stories that happened to them.[Blake Cohen] And oftentimes it was like slapstick type stuff,[Blake Cohen] such as a branch hitting somebody in the face while they were[Blake Cohen] running or somebody falling.[Blake Cohen] It was like that type of slapstick stuff,[Blake Cohen] but there were indications to show that they were laughing about this.[Blake Cohen] It was the earliest times when they were being playful with each[Blake Cohen] other and ball-busting,[Blake Cohen] which is great.[Blake Cohen] But I'm sure they used that as a way to build that trust,[Blake Cohen] to build connection with each other,[Blake Cohen] and as a blow-off valve for...[Blake Cohen] Probably what was a very stressful time back then.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] they're being hunted by like lions and also trying to survive every day,[Blake Cohen] finding their food,[Blake Cohen] and barely getting by,[Blake Cohen] and all types of diseases and stuff going on.[Blake Cohen] They were finding ways to use humor as a blow-off valve.[Blake Cohen] But there is something neurologically bonding about playing with each other.[Blake Cohen] That sounded bad.[Blake Cohen] Not that kind of playing.[Blake Cohen] Yes,[Blake Cohen] being playful with each other is what I'll say.[Blake Cohen] And laughing together.[Blake Cohen] There is a ton of neurological hormones that are being released[Blake Cohen] while you and I are laughing together.[Blake Cohen] We are truly bonding on a chemical level.[Blake Cohen] And once we have that bond,[Blake Cohen] it goes back,[Blake Cohen] which by the way,[Blake Cohen] if you do this on purpose,[Blake Cohen] this was a genius buildup,[Blake Cohen] but it goes back to the trust aspect that we were just talking about.[Blake Cohen] That trust is going to help us collaborate more effectively.[Blake Cohen] And thus,[Blake Cohen] being more productive and more engaged with our workplaces.[Blake Cohen] Like you said,[Blake Cohen] we don't leave bad jobs.[Blake Cohen] We leave bad bosses.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] we don't love great jobs.[Blake Cohen] We love the great people we work with.[Blake Cohen] That's where the emotional connection is.[Blake Cohen] It's not to a building.[Blake Cohen] It's not to a job itself.[Blake Cohen] The emotional connection is to the people that we're working with.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] truly.[Jess .] If you are working at a place,[Jess .] like a job is a job,[Jess .] okay?[Jess .] I don't care what you're doing.[Jess .] A job is a job.[Jess .] Sometimes you feel more passionate about it than others,[Jess .] but you're absolutely right that the difference.[Jess .] is the people,[Jess .] the team that you are working with and how that makes you feel.[Jess .] If you're showing up to work every day and you're dreading it,[Jess .] and I'm not just talking about Sunday scaries,[Jess .] I'm talking about literally.[Jess .] dreading,[Jess .] crying,[Jess .] coming into work because of the experiences that you're having,[Jess .] you got to get out of there.[Jess .] And so if the research shows to be proven true,[Jess .] why do you think it's so uncommon for laughter and playfulness to be seen as...[Jess .] a threat or something unprofessional rather than a strength in the workplace?[Blake Cohen] So I'll say that it's starting to become more accepted,[Blake Cohen] but I think widespread,[Blake Cohen] you're absolutely right.[Blake Cohen] And I think that has to do with a few different things.[Blake Cohen] If you think about our workplace cultures in general,[Blake Cohen] if we fully zoom out and we look at work,[Blake Cohen] the state of work in general.[Blake Cohen] We're still like 20,[Blake Cohen] 30 years behind where human beings actually are right now and what[Blake Cohen] our needs are right now.[Blake Cohen] So the work world is catching up right now.[Blake Cohen] And we are coming from a very hierarchical,[Blake Cohen] very oppressed,[Blake Cohen] very much.[Blake Cohen] We want you to have your job.[Blake Cohen] You're going to work here for 60 years and you're going to[Blake Cohen] eventually retire and then you're going to move on.[Blake Cohen] And you're just you're meant to do whatever we tell you to— a much[Blake Cohen] more purpose-driven workforce right now.[Blake Cohen] So I think part of it is that we are catching up.[Blake Cohen] I think also we often associate those terms as stuff we do outside[Blake Cohen] of work or stuff children do.[Blake Cohen] And I think it's the semantics of it is that just like many different words,[Blake Cohen] there's stigma associated with them.[Blake Cohen] So we hear the idea of play at work.[Blake Cohen] And I could probably guess what you're imagining in your mind.[Blake Cohen] But for the most part,[Blake Cohen] we imagine kids sitting in a sandbox playing or someone playing a board game.[Blake Cohen] And we think, 'OK,[Blake Cohen] that's not work.[Blake Cohen] No one's doing that on my time.' In reality,[Blake Cohen] that's not really what adult play looks like.[Blake Cohen] And it's really just being able to detach from work for a moment to[Blake Cohen] do something creative or something that just tickles our fancy for a[Blake Cohen] little bit and then being able to revisit the work so that we can be[Blake Cohen] more productive in the times that we are working.[Jess .] Also,[Jess .] I feel like play at work can look a lot like collaboration.[Jess .] You can collaborate while having a good time doing it.[Jess .] It doesn't need to be so structured and serious because that sucks[Jess .] all of the creativity out of anything.[Jess .] And if you're trying to find good solutions for problems you're having,[Jess .] you're not going to get good solutions or out-of-the-box solutions[Jess .] if you're not allowed to feel.[Jess .] Like you can be creative or feel safe in a collaborative environment.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] totally.[Blake Cohen] Totally.[Blake Cohen] And it really is about that safety,[Blake Cohen] by the way.[Blake Cohen] If I had to put it on a spectrum,[Blake Cohen] I would say like stress is on one end and collaboration and[Blake Cohen] playfulness are on the other.[Blake Cohen] I won't say collaboration.[Blake Cohen] I'll just say playfulness is on the other.[Blake Cohen] And the more we can move towards the playfulness side of it,[Blake Cohen] the less stressed and less tunnel vision-type of thinking that we're going to have.[Blake Cohen] And when we are highly stressed and in that tunnel vision,[Blake Cohen] or I call it a serious wormhole,[Blake Cohen] when we're in those serious wormholes,[Blake Cohen] we don't see any other solutions to our problems.[Blake Cohen] We are just sitting there trying to do our work and so focused,[Blake Cohen] so hyper-focused on fixing something or solving whatever problem[Blake Cohen] that we're facing that we don't actually...[Blake Cohen] think creatively and think of other ways to solve the problem that[Blake Cohen] might be more effective in the long run.[Blake Cohen] What we end up doing is putting band-aids on something that needs stitches.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] and how many times have you heard from people or even experienced in[Jess .] your own life not being able to show up with actual solutions or[Jess .] feel safe to share ideas because of the repercussions of that?[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] that feels terrible.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] it feels terrible.[Blake Cohen] And really what this whole idea is,[Blake Cohen] is about longevity,[Blake Cohen] employee longevity,[Blake Cohen] retention,[Blake Cohen] keeping people there,[Blake Cohen] lowering that turnover intention piece and improving the retention.[Blake Cohen] Really what we're thinking about is that if you were in an[Blake Cohen] environment where it is high stress all the time and you don't have[Blake Cohen] those blow-off valves built into your workplace,[Blake Cohen] you end up going on these cycles,[Blake Cohen] like a two-year,[Blake Cohen] three-year,[Blake Cohen] or four-year cycle where you're just constantly replacing employees.[Blake Cohen] Even if they last that long— three,[Blake Cohen] four years— which is not very common these days— you end up just[Blake Cohen] kind of constantly replacing people,[Blake Cohen] which is so much more expensive,[Blake Cohen] so much less productive.[Blake Cohen] It ends up really damaging your bottom line in the long run.[Blake Cohen] So the more that we can introduce these blow-off valves for stress,[Blake Cohen] like play and laughter,[Blake Cohen] and they can be built into our organization and even more importantly,[Blake Cohen] built into our culture,[Blake Cohen] the longer you're going to have employees wanting to...[Blake Cohen] be loyal to your organization and they're going to stay long-term.[Blake Cohen] And you're ultimately,[Blake Cohen] by doing that,[Blake Cohen] you're not just saving money from the expenses of losses,[Blake Cohen] but you're also building a highly loyal,[Blake Cohen] highly productive,[Blake Cohen] and passionate culture of people— a group of people who really care[Blake Cohen] about your organization's mission.[Jess .] So for all of that,[Jess .] when you're going into a company that's having some issues in the[Jess .] workplace and you figure out,[Jess .] well,[Jess .] we need to incorporate a little bit more fun,[Jess .] a little bit more play.[Jess .] So for workplaces that feel a little bit too serious,[Jess .] what do you suggest to leaders to be able to start bringing in more[Jess .] lightness and playfulness into the day-to-day without feeling like[Jess .] it's forced if it's something that they are not used to already?[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] I'm going to tell you the truth is that I'm still in the process of[Blake Cohen] fully figuring that out of how,[Blake Cohen] what can we build?[Blake Cohen] And I'm doing a ton more research built off the research for the TEDx,[Blake Cohen] probably leading to my dissertation and probably going to lead into[Blake Cohen] a book in the next year or so.[Blake Cohen] of trying to understand what is something that is,[Blake Cohen] what is the secret sauce?[Blake Cohen] Based off what I've seen already,[Blake Cohen] it really depends on the people.[Blake Cohen] And I think I mentioned this,[Blake Cohen] or not I think,[Blake Cohen] I know I mentioned it in my talk,[Blake Cohen] was that...[Blake Cohen] The challenging aspects of play and fun is that it looks differently for everybody.[Blake Cohen] So I think really what it is,[Blake Cohen] is about creating space where people can have fun and enjoy[Blake Cohen] themselves and saying here we're offering.[Blake Cohen] Yoga at two o'clock.[Blake Cohen] We're going to have a room that's full of board games.[Blake Cohen] Let's start every meeting with somebody bringing a joke to the meeting,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] allowing people to walk around and have conversations with each[Blake Cohen] other and not punish people for doing that and talking to their work bestie.[Blake Cohen] Let's do a creative exercise.[Blake Cohen] Okay,[Blake Cohen] let's forget what our goal is for today.[Blake Cohen] Let's do some type of creative team building exercise.[Blake Cohen] So finding ways to just introduce things that are not.[Blake Cohen] work-related.[Blake Cohen] And then also where it really comes down to for the long-term,[Blake Cohen] what leaders need to shift towards is being willing to not take[Blake Cohen] themselves too seriously.[Blake Cohen] And again,[Blake Cohen] it goes back to what we said before is that leaders set the tone and[Blake Cohen] it's up to leaders to model certain behaviors.[Blake Cohen] So some of the most effective leaders that I had found in doing my research.[Blake Cohen] at bringing in playfulness and laughter,[Blake Cohen] it wasn't always these planned fun sessions.[Blake Cohen] It was really more about what they brought in the day-to-day.[Blake Cohen] They brought in smiles.[Blake Cohen] They had conversations with people.[Blake Cohen] They walk up to someone's desks and...[Blake Cohen] ask about their lives and find ways to have these lighthearted,[Blake Cohen] joyful conversations about successes and joys.[Blake Cohen] They would celebrate people's successes in fun ways.[Blake Cohen] They would make up different awards for people for having the most[Blake Cohen] funky idea of the week or the funniest comment of the week.[Blake Cohen] The award goes to so-and-so.[Blake Cohen] They would just find a way to introduce lightheartedness into the culture and levity.[Blake Cohen] And that really trickled down then throughout the organization.[Blake Cohen] A few of them would celebrate people's uniqueness and they would[Blake Cohen] find ways to say, 'I love your shirt that you're wearing today.' And,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] I want everybody to find their favorite video game shirt and I want[Blake Cohen] them to wear it on Friday or their favorite movie.[Blake Cohen] And we're all going to dress as that character.[Blake Cohen] And they would just find fun ways to celebrate it.[Blake Cohen] And then they would say, 'Hey,[Blake Cohen] Jess,[Blake Cohen] I want you to be in charge of this.[Blake Cohen] You create the event.[Blake Cohen] You do this.[Blake Cohen] Let's create something fun for people who love video games.[Blake Cohen] And they would empower people through levity and just say, 'Hey,[Blake Cohen] take a break from your work.' I want you to focus on bringing all[Blake Cohen] the gamers together and just having some type of fun activity for all of them.[Blake Cohen] So there's all these different ways,[Blake Cohen] and that's where it's like I'm trying to find that secret sauce[Blake Cohen] because it does look so unique.[Blake Cohen] And really requires that emotional intelligence that we talked[Blake Cohen] earlier for the leader to step back and say,[Blake Cohen] okay,[Blake Cohen] who are my people?[Blake Cohen] What makes them happy?[Blake Cohen] Do I even know that?[Blake Cohen] Do I even know what they enjoy?[Blake Cohen] All right,[Blake Cohen] let me keep exploring that and going down that pathway.[Jess .] Yes,[Jess .] because,[Jess .] especially,[Jess .] what you mentioned earlier about that certain leadership style[Jess .] rooted in ego is so detrimental to workplace culture or hurting a[Jess .] team because that person doesn't know how to let go of their own insecurities.[Jess .] So I guess what advice would you have to give to the leader who would worry about bringing more fun into the workplace could hurt productivity or make them seem like they're not being serious enough or respected enough,[Jess .] that person that does have the ego?[Jess .] How would you work with them?[Blake Cohen] Yes,[Blake Cohen] that's where that feedback comes in.[Blake Cohen] And I don't have the data to back this up.[Blake Cohen] OK,[Blake Cohen] so I just want to say this is like a totally anecdotal statement.[Blake Cohen] But oftentimes those people who have those types of issues are the[Blake Cohen] ones who are the most scared of getting employee feedback.[Blake Cohen] Because they're also very afraid of not being liked and they're very[Blake Cohen] afraid of what they're going to hear.[Blake Cohen] So what I would suggest is to have the courage then to,[Blake Cohen] if you have one,[Blake Cohen] if you have the insight already,[Blake Cohen] to say, 'Hey,[Blake Cohen] I think I'm doing something wrong and I could be better as a leader[Blake Cohen] .' That's step number one.[Blake Cohen] So I would already commend that person for reaching out.[Blake Cohen] I commend them for wanting to be better and maybe wanting to be less[Blake Cohen] serious or more impactful.[Blake Cohen] Two,[Blake Cohen] I would ask them to get some honest feedback.[Blake Cohen] And then we would start working together on ways that they can introduce levity,[Blake Cohen] maybe a bit more structured at first.[Blake Cohen] But I would really want to get to know that person and find out what[Blake Cohen] makes them tick and what brought them to their position.[Blake Cohen] What do they love about what they do?[Blake Cohen] And then finding ways to...[Blake Cohen] to express that passion.[Blake Cohen] And it really does come down to them being able to develop that[Blake Cohen] emotional intelligence to know that they can express their emotions.[Blake Cohen] They can break that fourth wall of leadership and cross that border[Blake Cohen] and be able to really deeply connect with their teams.[Blake Cohen] Someone asked me the other day,[Blake Cohen] because I'm working on this project of combining adaptive leadership,[Blake Cohen] which is one of the most important leadership styles right now in[Blake Cohen] these changing times,[Blake Cohen] with humor,[Blake Cohen] playfulness,[Blake Cohen] and levity.[Blake Cohen] And they said, 'What if I'm not funny though?[Blake Cohen] Like,[Blake Cohen] I'm not a funny person.' So what do I do?[Blake Cohen] And I was like, 'You missed the point.' It's not about being funny.[Blake Cohen] It's about being willing to laugh.[Blake Cohen] And it's about pointing out flaws in ourselves.[Blake Cohen] And saying, 'I really screwed that up.' And 'Oops,' being able to[Blake Cohen] make a joke of these things that feel so serious to everybody,[Blake Cohen] these big mistakes,[Blake Cohen] being able to laugh about them.[Blake Cohen] but then learn from them.[Blake Cohen] And doing that is modeling a behavior that we want to see in our employees.[Blake Cohen] We want them to try things,[Blake Cohen] to make mistakes,[Blake Cohen] to fail,[Blake Cohen] to get back up,[Blake Cohen] to develop that resilience.[Blake Cohen] So just by introducing humor or levity into moments that feel really serious or scary,[Blake Cohen] we're actually creating resilience.[Blake Cohen] We're creating psychological safety in those moments.[Blake Cohen] And then we can also create that trust that we talked about before.[Blake Cohen] And then you can move forward as a much stronger individual[Blake Cohen] employees and much stronger teams.[Jess .] All of that is so important in a great workplace.[Jess .] So much of that resonated with me.[Jess .] And yeah,[Jess .] yeah,[Jess .] it was just,[Jess .] it really is.[Jess .] It's so important to create mostly the trust,[Jess .] to know that it is safe to make a mistake.[Jess .] To show up as your authentic self,[Jess .] to know that you can go to your leader with an issue or with[Jess .] feedback and know that you are going to be met with respect.[Jess .] Or,[Jess .] like,[Jess .] hey,[Jess .] let's talk about it.[Jess .] It's nice to see your leader also modeling accountability for[Jess .] whatever their actions are or if they've made a mistake.[Jess .] Because at the end of the day,[Jess .] it doesn't matter who you are.[Jess .] We all make mistakes.[Jess .] We're human.[Jess .] But what makes the difference is a person being able to own up to it[Jess .] when they have made a mistake,[Jess .] regardless of what that is.[Jess .] It makes a huge difference.[Jess .] And that also creates trust.[Blake Cohen] Right.[Blake Cohen] Agreed.[Blake Cohen] Think about this scenario.[Blake Cohen] If you are my boss and I walk into your office and go,[Blake Cohen] I'm struggling.[Blake Cohen] I cannot figure this out.[Blake Cohen] I don't know what to do.[Blake Cohen] I'm starting to panic.[Blake Cohen] I cannot connect with these clients for whatever reason.[Blake Cohen] And it's really taking a toll on me.[Blake Cohen] And you laugh in a playful way.[Blake Cohen] And you respond by going like,[Blake Cohen] you know.[Blake Cohen] hold on,[Blake Cohen] like chill out.[Blake Cohen] Like,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] you're going to be okay.[Blake Cohen] And you smile at me and you laugh.[Blake Cohen] All of a sudden it takes this sting and brings me out of that serious wormhole.[Blake Cohen] And I realize,[Blake Cohen] oh my God,[Blake Cohen] I'm going to be okay.[Blake Cohen] And I'm going to end up mirroring your smile that you're showing me.[Blake Cohen] And I'm going to end up feeling,[Blake Cohen] oh,[Blake Cohen] wait,[Blake Cohen] the world's not ending.[Blake Cohen] Okay,[Blake Cohen] I'm okay.[Blake Cohen] I can figure this out.[Blake Cohen] You're here to support me.[Blake Cohen] You're not mad at me that I can't figure this out.[Blake Cohen] And we're in this together.[Blake Cohen] And I'm cared for and supported.[Blake Cohen] you're going to be able to then go out there with less stress in[Blake Cohen] your system and be able to go figure out a way to solve that problem,[Blake Cohen] or you're going to work on it together.[Blake Cohen] If you come in there and you give me the opposite and you go,[Blake Cohen] well,[Blake Cohen] what's wrong with you?[Blake Cohen] I hired you to do these types of things.[Blake Cohen] You should be able to figure this out.[Blake Cohen] Or I just say,[Blake Cohen] hey,[Blake Cohen] I don't got time for this.[Blake Cohen] I appreciate you bringing it to me.[Blake Cohen] I don't have time for this though.[Blake Cohen] Like I need you really to figure this out because this is really important.[Blake Cohen] You are just adding to my stress and it's not productive at all.[Blake Cohen] And I may end up going out there to go fix that problem because you[Blake Cohen] added to my stress and pressure.[Blake Cohen] I may fix that problem because now I'm scared,[Blake Cohen] but I'm creating solutions out of fear.[Blake Cohen] And that is not sustainable long-term.[Jess .] I'm getting the heebie-jeebies just listening to that.[Jess .] It really is.[Jess .] It's just so toxic,[Jess .] the latter.[Jess .] That is,[Jess .] oh my goodness.[Jess .] Jeez.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I don't want to go back to that.[Blake Cohen] No,[Blake Cohen] I know,[Blake Cohen] right?[Blake Cohen] I feel the same way.[Blake Cohen] I also don't,[Blake Cohen] now that I've studied it so much,[Blake Cohen] worked with it so much,[Blake Cohen] I don't know that I can go back to it.[Blake Cohen] I don't know that I could work for somebody who's like that anymore[Blake Cohen] without laughing it off,[Blake Cohen] honestly.[Blake Cohen] I think I'd be like, 'Oh God,[Blake Cohen] here we go.' This isn't going to work.[Blake Cohen] That's why the two concepts that I introduced in the talk were[Blake Cohen] professional playfulness and trickle-down silliness.[Blake Cohen] Trickle-down silliness is all about leaders setting the tone,[Blake Cohen] modeling the behaviors that we want to see.[Blake Cohen] In our culture and really thinking past the laughter and playfulness aspect.[Blake Cohen] They're just the vehicles to get to a culture destination.[Blake Cohen] So we need to think past them and just realize that they are tools.[Blake Cohen] They're not meant to be like your culture is not meant to turn into a joke.[Blake Cohen] It's just tools to get to a much healthier,[Blake Cohen] psychologically safe culture.[Blake Cohen] And then the professional playfulness is allowing people to be their[Blake Cohen] unique selves and their authentic selves and to find things that[Blake Cohen] help them blow off that steam and creating a culture.[Blake Cohen] That leaves room for play— is the quote from the talk that lets[Blake Cohen] people go take that walk that they need or go for a run or watch[Blake Cohen] something funny on Instagram or do whatever they have to do to kind[Blake Cohen] of refocus themselves back to their work without being in that stress wormhole.[Jess .] Speaking of taking a walk or a run,[Jess .] I want to know in the world that you work in,[Jess .] where you're always helping others figure out all of this kind of stuff,[Jess .] I'm sure that can be exhausting from time to time.[Jess .] So how do you personally stay grounded and or take care of yourself?[Blake Cohen] I watch The Real Housewives.[Blake Cohen] I love them.[Blake Cohen] I really do.[Blake Cohen] That's amazing.[Blake Cohen] My wife got into it and she's watched it for years,[Blake Cohen] like all of the different cities.[Blake Cohen] She's watched it for years.[Blake Cohen] And I refused because I'm like,[Blake Cohen] I am a man,[Blake Cohen] a straight man,[Blake Cohen] and I'm not watching that.[Blake Cohen] And,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] it became like one of those things where I start watching little bit,[Blake Cohen] little bit.[Blake Cohen] And now I'm more invested than she is in all the drama.[Blake Cohen] And I think part of it is because it's like watching,[Blake Cohen] well,[Blake Cohen] it's like watching a train wreck,[Blake Cohen] one.[Blake Cohen] But two,[Blake Cohen] it's so fascinating to see how unhealthy these people are.[Blake Cohen] And what that ends up leading to,[Blake Cohen] how their behavior ends up causing these huge ripple effects.[Blake Cohen] It's like one big psychological experiment,[Blake Cohen] and I love watching it.[Blake Cohen] And that doesn't create more exhaustion for you?[Blake Cohen] No,[Blake Cohen] because I don't think I'm analyzing it seriously.[Blake Cohen] I'm just fascinated by it.[Blake Cohen] Otherwise,[Blake Cohen] though,[Blake Cohen] I do love spending time with my wife.[Blake Cohen] I love exercising,[Blake Cohen] spending time with the dog.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] I keep things simple.[Blake Cohen] I will tell you— just in the spirit of true honesty— my life is a[Blake Cohen] little unbalanced at this point.[Blake Cohen] And I think I could be better at self-care.[Blake Cohen] I do still go see a therapist regularly.[Blake Cohen] I have multiple mentors for different areas of my life that I speak to.[Blake Cohen] If there's anything that my recovery has taught me,[Blake Cohen] it's that a problem shared is a problem cut in half.[Blake Cohen] So I'm very much a verbal processor and I speak to a lot of people[Blake Cohen] in my life that I trust and who will tell me the truth.[Blake Cohen] But I could be better.[Blake Cohen] I think,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] show me a doctoral student who's also trying to start their own[Blake Cohen] practice and doing all these things and also managing life that does[Blake Cohen] have a balanced lifestyle.[Jess .] That's a lot.[Jess .] I give you so much credit.[Jess .] That really is.[Jess .] It is a lot.[Jess .] And it makes sense that it might be a little out of balance now,[Jess .] but that doesn't mean that it's forever.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] like the tough thing I've had to accept is that it's sort of,[Blake Cohen] this is a massive investment of my time.[Blake Cohen] And I mean,[Blake Cohen] and I guess money too.[Blake Cohen] Turns out going into higher education,[Blake Cohen] it's expensive.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] a little bit.[Blake Cohen] And it turns out it's hard.[Blake Cohen] And it turns out there's a lot to do.[Blake Cohen] I guess there's a reason only like 1% or 2% of the population has a doctorate.[Blake Cohen] I get why now.[Blake Cohen] But I know that juice will be worth the squeeze when it comes down to it.[Blake Cohen] So I'm just...[Blake Cohen] trying to enjoy the moments where I feel rested and trying to take breaks.[Blake Cohen] I am planning a camping trip with some friends that we do it every year.[Blake Cohen] We call it the 'edge tour' because we're basically always,[Blake Cohen] someone's on the edge of death usually.[Blake Cohen] Amazing.[Blake Cohen] It's very intense and very intense hiking.[Blake Cohen] And it's usually a lot of dangerous things that we shouldn't be[Blake Cohen] doing and going off the paths.[Blake Cohen] And it's boy stuff.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] Someone always comes back injured every time.[Blake Cohen] Fortunately,[Blake Cohen] I've already had my injury on one of these trips.[Blake Cohen] So,[Blake Cohen] hopefully,[Blake Cohen] I'm not due anytime soon.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] But yeah,[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] I just try to take the breaks whenever I can.[Blake Cohen] I try to squeeze in relaxation.[Blake Cohen] I do try to exercise.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] Blake,[Jess .] what advice would you give somebody who might feel stuck in a toxic[Jess .] work environment and doesn't know where to start?[Blake Cohen] I think that's a really good question.[Blake Cohen] And I think that's up to the person.[Blake Cohen] And I think they need to start by seeking out support of people that[Blake Cohen] they trust and having these conversations and not just getting an[Blake Cohen] opinion from one person about what they should do,[Blake Cohen] but speak to many people in different areas of their life and to get advice.[Blake Cohen] So many factors play a role if you're in these toxic situations.[Blake Cohen] Finances— what can you afford to do?[Blake Cohen] What decision,[Blake Cohen] what level of risk can you take?[Blake Cohen] But also,[Blake Cohen] are there ways that you can keep doing your job if you need to,[Blake Cohen] while also finding things that you're passionate about outside of your job?[Blake Cohen] The last piece I'll say is that oftentimes people underestimate the[Blake Cohen] impact they can have as a,[Blake Cohen] I call it a mini leader,[Blake Cohen] as a mini leader within their job.[Blake Cohen] You don't need a title.[Blake Cohen] In order to impact your organization's culture,[Blake Cohen] you can still start to be that agent of change.[Blake Cohen] And without doing something crazy that's going to get you fired,[Blake Cohen] you can start being that person who brings the levity and joyfulness[Blake Cohen] back into your organization.[Blake Cohen] And ultimately,[Blake Cohen] I think that's going to end up benefiting you and getting you noticed.[Blake Cohen] And hopefully people...[Blake Cohen] start noticing that your behavior is shifting the culture around you[Blake Cohen] and your little microcosm of a little world with inside your workplace.[Blake Cohen] And hopefully that starts giving people higher up some ideas of[Blake Cohen] maybe some changes that they can make.[Blake Cohen] But don't be afraid to bring the change to your organization.[Blake Cohen] Don't think that you need a specific role or anyone's approval to[Blake Cohen] start behaving differently and making the people's lives around you better.[Jess .] That's all really great advice that I wish I would have taken from[Jess .] somebody possibly more than one time in my life,[Jess .] you know?[Blake Cohen] But when we're in those serious wormholes,[Blake Cohen] it's really easier said than done.[Blake Cohen] Sometimes we just can't,[Blake Cohen] we can't see past what's directly in front of us.[Jess .] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] The original TED Talk,[Blake Cohen] by the way,[Blake Cohen] that I was going to be doing,[Blake Cohen] and I changed it two weeks before the topic,[Blake Cohen] before I pitched it and did the audition.[Blake Cohen] So I had auditioned for so many of these talks,[Blake Cohen] or at least applied for so many of these talks and gotten denied[Blake Cohen] over and over and over again.[Blake Cohen] And it was always because I would submit these,[Blake Cohen] like the topics that I thought they wanted to hear that I could speak to,[Blake Cohen] but I'm like,[Blake Cohen] they don't really tickle.[Blake Cohen] Like,[Blake Cohen] it's not my thing.[Blake Cohen] The laughter and playfulness thing was my thing,[Blake Cohen] but the other topic— that I had done a ton of research on and had[Blake Cohen] all these cool stories about— that I ended up nixing to go with the[Blake Cohen] laughter and playfulness one was actually the idea of the hidden[Blake Cohen] leaders that have affected our lives and all the people that work[Blake Cohen] for these corporations.[Blake Cohen] Or worked behind the scenes of things that have made massive shifts in huge movements,[Blake Cohen] organizational success.[Blake Cohen] And it's sort of these inspirational stories of people we've never[Blake Cohen] heard of that have made or broken some massive movements or organizations.[Blake Cohen] It's not only possible,[Blake Cohen] it's not only a nice thing to say that you can be the change within your organization.[Blake Cohen] There are people throughout history who have done some incredible[Blake Cohen] things without their name ever being spoken.[Jess .] That's really cool.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] some cool ones.[Jess .] That's cool.[Jess .] Would you say,[Jess .] though,[Jess .] that it didn't tickle your something?[Jess .] But then I wanted to go back to,[Jess .] would you say that was your intuition that led you back to your playfulness?[Blake Cohen] Girl,[Blake Cohen] look at you going full circle.[Jess .] Look at that.[Jess .] We just circle back to that.[Blake Cohen] Damn.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] no,[Blake Cohen] I would say something just felt off.[Blake Cohen] And I felt like this was the closest TEDx that I could,[Blake Cohen] I'm like,[Blake Cohen] this is really possible.[Blake Cohen] I could really get this one,[Blake Cohen] but I gotta be good.[Blake Cohen] This has gotta be a good topic.[Jess .] You flexed your intuition muscle.[Jess .] I'm so proud of you.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Jess .] Fantastic.[Blake Cohen] Yep.[Blake Cohen] And it worked.[Blake Cohen] So I'm glad about that.[Jess .] I'm glad too,[Jess .] because your TEDx was fantastic.[Jess .] I can't wait for other people to watch it as well.[Jess .] In addition to your TEDx,[Jess .] you mentioned a book possibly that you're writing.[Jess .] All sorts of other stuff.[Jess .] What's something you're excited about right now,[Jess .] whether it's a project idea or something you're working toward?[Jess .] What else?[Jess .] What's next for Blake?[Blake Cohen] I am,[Blake Cohen] honestly,[Blake Cohen] it is the book.[Blake Cohen] All right,[Blake Cohen] so this is going to be a really bad question or bad answer.[Blake Cohen] But honestly,[Blake Cohen] I'm in a really,[Blake Cohen] I'm in a cool place right now,[Blake Cohen] psychologically,[Blake Cohen] where my main focus is school right now.[Blake Cohen] Like,[Blake Cohen] there's just no way.[Blake Cohen] I can't not be.[Blake Cohen] But on the side,[Blake Cohen] I have all of these little seeds.[Blake Cohen] planted out there.[Blake Cohen] And I feel like I'm slowly building towards something and I don't know what it is.[Jess .] Something big.[Blake Cohen] Something big.[Blake Cohen] And it feels like I'm excited about all these little things that are going on,[Blake Cohen] but I have no idea where they're leading.[Blake Cohen] And I would say that I'm truly trusting the process at this moment,[Blake Cohen] but I feel like there's a lot that I'm excited about.[Blake Cohen] But when you ask me the specifics of it,[Blake Cohen] I can't tell you because I don't know.[Blake Cohen] I just know there's seeds planted.[Blake Cohen] I'm putting myself out there more than ever.[Blake Cohen] I'm excited to see if there's something that comes from this TEDx talk.[Blake Cohen] I'm excited to see.[Blake Cohen] I have a few speaking engagements coming up.[Blake Cohen] I'm excited for all these little things that are going on.[Blake Cohen] I'm excited that I just submitted my first statistics final,[Blake Cohen] and I'm just excited to be done with that.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] congratulations.[Jess .] And you know what?[Jess .] All of the little things are what makes up the big things.[Jess .] So those are just as,[Jess .] if not more important.[Jess .] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] look,[Blake Cohen] honestly,[Blake Cohen] what I'm going to say is that I'm creating a life for myself in this career.[Blake Cohen] That I would really enjoy.[Blake Cohen] If I can become the guy who brings fun to workplaces,[Blake Cohen] like who wouldn't want to do that?[Blake Cohen] That's it's awesome.[Blake Cohen] So I'm trying to see how I can build it like brick by brick into[Blake Cohen] that being my career as being like the fun guy.[Jess .] Blake,[Jess .] the fun guy.[Jess .] I like that.[Blake Cohen] I love fun.[Blake Cohen] I want to bring joy.[Blake Cohen] Let's bring joy.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] exactly.[Blake Cohen] I'm a Jewish Santa Claus.[Jess .] I love that.[Jess .] I love that so much.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] I'm Hanukkah Harry.[Jess .] Hanukkah Harry.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] Hanukkah Harry,[Jess .] where is the best place for people to connect with you and learn[Jess .] more about what you do or about your work?[Jess .] Before we get into the fun questions.[Blake Cohen] Blake Evan Cohen dot com is my my main Web site that you can go find everything on there.[Blake Cohen] My podcast,[Blake Cohen] all that good stuff.[Blake Cohen] For a while,[Blake Cohen] I always I thought like Blake Cohen wasn't a cool name.[Blake Cohen] So I was like,[Blake Cohen] I wanted to go by Blake Evan.[Blake Cohen] That's my middle name.[Blake Cohen] And I'm like,[Blake Cohen] I'm going to be Blake Evan.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] now you're going to be Blake,[Jess .] fun guy,[Jess .] Hanukkah Harry.[Blake Cohen] Perfect.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] that's it.[Jess .] Full title.[Blake Cohen] That is a lot cooler.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I already think that you're so much cooler than when we first met.[Blake Cohen] Perfect.[Blake Cohen] Awesome.[Jess .] With that being said,[Jess .] Blake,[Jess .] it's now time for fun questions.[Jess .] One day I'll create a fun little jingle to put here.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] you need music.[Jess .] I will.[Jess .] You know what?[Jess .] I'm a busy lady too,[Jess .] okay?[Jess .] I'm trying to do a million things,[Jess .] too many things.[Jess .] No![Blake Cohen] I get it.[Blake Cohen] If you don't care about your podcast success,[Blake Cohen] I get it.[Jess .] Oh,[Jess .] God,[Jess .] I'm being called out.[Jess .] I got to make a fun tune.[Jess .] I got to make a fun tune.[Jess .] But until then...[Jess .] I get it.[Blake Cohen] It's just a side project.[Blake Cohen] Don't worry about it.[Jess .] Ooh,[Jess .] yeah,[Jess .] that would,[Jess .] ooh.[Jess .] All right,[Jess .] I'm going to do it now because you just called me out on my bullshit,[Jess .] which I'm very,[Jess .] very appreciative.[Jess .] So thank you.[Blake Cohen] Oh,[Blake Cohen] you're welcome.[Jess .] With that being said now,[Jess .] I'm going to ask.[Blake Cohen] -[Blake Cohen] I'm also the Grinch.[Blake Cohen] I'm going to-[Blake Cohen] I'm not just Santa Claus.[Blake Cohen] I'm also the Grinch.[Jess .] Wow.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Jess .] You're multi multifaceted is the word.[Blake Cohen] You know,[Blake Cohen] I'm complex.[Blake Cohen] Okay.[Blake Cohen] I can be that bad guy.[Jess .] All right.[Jess .] Question number one.[Jess .] This is something I ask everybody that comes onto the podcast.[Jess .] Who is someone you are grateful for and why?[Blake Cohen] I am grateful for my wife.[Blake Cohen] I think she is incredibly grounding for me.[Blake Cohen] She is my best friend.[Blake Cohen] I think,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] you rarely find people who share your exact sense of humor.[Blake Cohen] And to me,[Blake Cohen] that's always been very important.[Blake Cohen] So I'm very grateful for her.[Blake Cohen] She brings a lot of positivity and love into my life and not just my life,[Blake Cohen] but my family's life as well.[Blake Cohen] Coming from a family that struggles with showing emotion,[Blake Cohen] you know,[Blake Cohen] she came in as just this light,[Blake Cohen] forcing people to hug and kiss and say, 'I love you.' So I'm always[Blake Cohen] grateful for her for that.[Jess .] Amazing.[Jess .] Very happy to hear that.[Jess .] The next question is,[Jess .] what is a word you can never spell correctly,[Jess .] no matter how many times you've had to spell it?[Blake Cohen] Oh my God.[Blake Cohen] Most words.[Blake Cohen] I was about to say the same thing.[Jess .] I feel the same way.[Jess .] I'm glad I'm not the only one.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] I mean,[Blake Cohen] entrepreneur is always one.[Blake Cohen] Same.[Blake Cohen] How do you spell it?[Blake Cohen] Shouldn't,[Blake Cohen] should not be spelled.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] It shouldn't just,[Blake Cohen] I don't know.[Jess .] We should change that.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] Thinking about it.[Blake Cohen] Man.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] There's a lot.[Blake Cohen] What about you?[Blake Cohen] What's your,[Blake Cohen] like the hardest one for you to spell?[Jess .] That is probably number one.[Jess .] I also can never spell personality correctly.[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] I don't know if it has.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] I don't know why.[Jess .] I just always try and put two L's instead of one.[Jess .] It only has one L.[Jess .] I'm sure there's many,[Jess .] many,[Jess .] many more.[Jess .] There's also so many words I can't pronounce because in my head,[Jess .] I'll be hearing them correctly in my brain.[Jess .] But when it comes out of my mouth,[Jess .] I sound so stupid because I'm not saying the word correctly.[Blake Cohen] What an interesting,[Blake Cohen] I can't get over personality at the moment because I feel like[Blake Cohen] personality is one of those like really phonetic words that just is[Blake Cohen] like spelled exactly how it sounds.[Jess .] It's the two L's versus the one.[Jess .] I can never remember.[Jess .] Does it have two L's or one?[Jess .] Okay.[Jess .] At the end.[Blake Cohen] You know what?[Blake Cohen] There is a word like that for me,[Blake Cohen] committed.[Blake Cohen] Committed or commitment.[Blake Cohen] I always end up adding an M or adding a T.[Blake Cohen] And is there two T's?[Blake Cohen] Is there two M's?[Blake Cohen] I don't know.[Blake Cohen] I always misspell it every single time.[Jess .] Spelling,[Jess .] grammar.[Jess .] Well,[Jess .] grammar is easier than spelling,[Jess .] I think.[Jess .] But spelling,[Jess .] saying words,[Jess .] difficult.[Jess .] Question number three.[Jess .] If you had a secret room in your house,[Jess .] like one that you would enter from a bookcase,[Jess .] what would be in it?[Blake Cohen] A secret murder room,[Blake Cohen] I think.[Blake Cohen] No.[Blake Cohen] Whoa.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] sorry.[Blake Cohen] Where did that come from?[Blake Cohen] No,[Blake Cohen] I think if I had that,[Blake Cohen] I would want...[Blake Cohen] a secret like sensory room— like just like different things that[Blake Cohen] like click and like a fur wall and just somewhere like and sit and[Blake Cohen] shut off from the world and like not have access to Wi-Fi in there.[Blake Cohen] And it just be like a bubble that I can just sit in peace and[Blake Cohen] silence and like like pop things and just sit and like really sensory out.[Blake Cohen] There would be Plato in that room for sure.[Blake Cohen] For sure.[Jess .] Lots of Play-Doh,[Jess .] maybe a coloring book.[Jess .] That's what I would have in mind if I was having—something like a[Jess .] sensory room with bubbles.[Jess .] I take bubbles everywhere I go with me.[Jess .] Yes.[Jess .] I'm not kidding.[Jess .] There's bubbles in my trunk at all times.[Jess .] And I recently purchased another thing of bubbles,[Jess .] and it's now in the back of my friend's car.[Jess .] But I used to go over to this one person's house all the time.[Jess .] I kept a thing of bubbles there and a can of Play-Doh or a container of Play-Doh.[Jess .] And you know what's funny?[Jess .] As an adult,[Jess .] people will,[Jess .] and I'm sure you can attest to this,[Jess .] people will forget what it's like to do childlike activities.[Jess .] And then when I give them bubbles to blow,[Jess .] you should just see their face light up.[Jess .] Like,[Jess .] oh yeah,[Jess .] I want to blow bubbles.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] It's like people eating an ice cream cone.[Jess .] You never see them unhappy.[Blake Cohen] Exactly.[Blake Cohen] And by the way,[Blake Cohen] like we go back to the whole laughter and play thing and we talk[Blake Cohen] about like it's a thing we imagine children doing.[Blake Cohen] There are also things that as adults we should be doing that children do.[Jess .] 100%.[Blake Cohen] That is a big part of it.[Blake Cohen] And I'm not saying bring a sandbox into your workplace,[Blake Cohen] but there's just little things that bring us back to that relaxed time.[Blake Cohen] There was no stress in childhood.[Blake Cohen] Well,[Blake Cohen] some people had a lot of stress and trauma going on,[Blake Cohen] but there were also those moments of peace where play was used.[Blake Cohen] And we should have those types of things— like Play-Doh on your desk or something fun,[Blake Cohen] a coloring book—something that we can bring into our lives that feels childlike.[Blake Cohen] That childlike spirit should be carried into our adult lives.[Jess .] Yeah.[Jess .] I truly believe that it is there,[Jess .] regardless of how old you are,[Jess .] what experiences you've been through.[Jess .] There's always that inner child that is always going to be inside of you.[Jess .] Some people try to ignore it,[Jess .] some people try to shut it out.[Jess .] And I feel like those are the miserable people.[Jess .] And the people that seem like they have their shit together and they're happy,[Jess .] like for real,[Jess .] for real,[Jess .] not like just posting it online because that's what they're trying to come off as.[Jess .] Those are the people that really lean into and embrace their[Jess .] childlike sense of self and carry bubbles around.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] And you might have to let some people judge you for that,[Blake Cohen] but it's usually just showing that they feel so detached from who[Blake Cohen] they were as children.[Blake Cohen] Yeah.[Blake Cohen] And we've got to find ways to merge those two,[Blake Cohen] our adult and child lives.[Blake Cohen] 100%.[Jess .] The moral of the story is to carry some bubbles around at all times[Jess .] and watch your friends' faces go from frowning to a joyful smile.[Blake Cohen] Yeah,[Blake Cohen] totally.[Jess .] On that note,[Jess .] thank you so much for being here today and doing this.[Jess .] This was great.[Jess .] It was awesome.[Blake Cohen] Thank you for having me.[Jess .] Yeah,[Jess .] of course.[Jess .] This was fantastic.[Jess .] And to go back to the beginning,[Jess .] I do feel very comfortable.[Jess .] It's like we've known each other for so long.[Jess .] So that's always great.[Blake Cohen] I feel even more the same way that I said in the beginning.[Blake Cohen] So yeah,[Blake Cohen] I'm glad to be an underwire with you today.[Blake Cohen] Thank you.[Blake Cohen] And glad to be on the pod.[Blake Cohen] And thank you for having me.[Blake Cohen] Seriously,[Blake Cohen] it was fun.[Blake Cohen] It was a really fun conversation.[Blake Cohen] You had some great questions.[Blake Cohen] And I think I hope people find value in what we talked about.[Jess .] All right,[Jess .] folks,[Jess .] that just about wraps up another episode of The Underwire.[Jess .] A huge thank you to Blake for joining me today and sharing his story[Jess .] from his time working in recovery to his journey into leadership and[Jess .] organizational psychology and for showing us just how much play and[Jess .] laughter can help foster trust,[Jess .] connection,[Jess .] and belonging in our workplaces.[Jess .] Blake reminded us that laughter,[Jess .] playfulness,[Jess .] and genuine human connection aren't just nice-to-haves at work.[Jess .] They are essential for thriving teams and happier people.[Jess .] Whether it's leaning into play,[Jess .] finding ways to laugh with all the people around you,[Jess .] or remembering not to take ourselves too seriously,[Jess .] the insights Blake shared today are all about making your work and your life better.[Jess .] A little lighter,[Jess .] a little more joyful,[Jess .] and a lot more human.[Jess .] If this episode made you laugh,[Jess .] gave you a new perspective,[Jess .] or inspired you to bring more play into your life,[Jess .] please share it with a friend,[Jess .] leave a five-star rating,[Jess .] or drop a quick review.[Jess .] That's the best way to help me reach more listeners like you who[Jess .] could use a reminder that work doesn't need to feel heavy to be taken seriously.[Jess .] You can also follow Blake on Instagram,[Jess .] LinkedIn,[Jess .] or check out his website to see all the ways he's helping[Jess .] organizations create cultures built on trust,[Jess .] connection,[Jess .] and yeah,[Jess .] you guessed it,[Jess .] play.[Jess .] Follow The Underwire on Instagram at TheUnderwireOfficial and send a[Jess .] DM with your thoughts,[Jess .] questions,[Jess .] or experiences because I love hearing from you.[Jess .] So keep laughing,[Jess .] keep playing,[Jess .] and keep bringing your full human self into everything you do.[Jess .] I'll catch you on the next episode.[Jess .] See ya!